Buying and Selling; shipping items and Escrow.com

@inagroove LOL, again more misinformation from someone with a paucity of feedback on this site. And a failure to address the misinformation called out in the first post. Do you even read what you are posting? Neither of us wants to shift risk to the seller, which is what you wrote in your second sentence. We are shifting the risk to the to the buyer.

First, independent of the method of payment, Audiogon requires the goods to arrive to the buyer in the condition described in the ad. Simple as that. I have had an item arrived damaged to the buyer on two occasions and have given a choice, both times, of an immediate refund, and return shipping, or a discount from the price paid. You don’t get years of great feedback by treating fellow hobbyists inequitibly.

There are a lot of no feedback, or low feedback, folks buying on this site. Feedback is the primary source of trust for me. So even though I treat them the same as any other buyer, I want to be insulated from PayPal charge backs and buyer scams.

I walk the walk, and am happy to make purchases using money order, personal check or friends and family on a regular basis. If I am asking other folks to do that, it is only fair that I do the same as a buyer as well.

Some of the members here were members of a print publication called Audiomart, this is before the advent of the internet. We bought and sold, much as we do now and, after making a deal on the telephone, it was not uncommon for the seller to ship the goods before the check from the buyer arrived.

You, and others here, may be averse to certain payment methods, nothing wrong with that. Dont buy, you dont seem to do a lot of that anyway, another expert free of experience keeping the internet safe. But the rest is a fine stew of paranoia with a side of fake news.

@viridian and @bassdude

Thanks for the comments. 

I understand you, and many sellers, would prefer to put ALL of the Risk on the seller.  How nice for you. 

But there a few problems...

1. All functional (and most cosmetic) issues can be hidden with good photography.

2. AG advertisements require an item to be assigned a condition-rating (e.g. 9/10) and to state any defects (both functional and cosmetic).  If it ARRIVES (to the buyer) in a lesser condition, you are in breach of that contract (i.e. false advertising).

3. Cash up-front (including F&F), with no item in-hand leaves the buyer stranded, hoping they are not getting ripped-off.  If an issue arises, the Buyer does all of the work to rectify the problem - Truly unscrupulous.  

4. Sellers may have gotten the items from the gray-market, with absolutely no provenance, with the intent to 'flip' them for profit.  Consequently, the internal parts may not be original parts or may not even be functional.

5. The items being sold may be a knock-off items.  This is a very common issue with cables, tubes, etc. - it seems that China is especially adept at imitating trademarked goods.

If I were working with a Used Car Dealer, instead buying your used audio gear, at least I would have the chance to drive it, look under the hood, kick the tires, etc. BEFORE turning over my cash.

Clearly, your sales process falls below that considerably very-low bar.

** Again, I encourage ALL BUYERS to avoid buying from dealers who will not stand behind the sale.  It is our money, and we deserve to be protected from scammers. 

Ethical sellers should know enough to avoid that crowd by using a buyer-protection backed medium (ex. Credit Cards, PP, etc.).

As the seller, I only accept certain payment (cleared check, or money order, etc.) and shipping terms of FOB (Free on Board) - in which the buyer’s shipper picks up the item, the buyer pays for shipping directly to the shipper, and risk of loss during shipment is the buyer’s risk to file claims with the shipper. Or, the buyer can pick up the item personally.

The buyer is free to choose the shipper the buyer prefers (UPS, FedEx, or freight shipper, etc.).

"UPS Pack & Ship" appears to be a good alternative for shipment to assure good insurance coverage and minimal potential for difficulties in settlement of claims.

I take plenty of pics of the item, the packaging and the packing process to provide to the buyer to support any claims.

The buyer is in control of the shipment and the risks, and determines the shipper in which he has the greatest confidence, who honors their insurance, which may be a freight shipper.

That is the best way to avoid conflicts.

I can only speak from personal experience, but I only accept personal check or money order for my sales. Commonly folks ask to pay me via PayPal and I only accept F&F in that instance. It has not hurt my sales at all, in fact, I only have one piece for sale at the moment.

Then again, I do not ever ship large speakers as the OP is correct, these have an increased probability of damage, so I sell these on Craigslist, and would never purchase large speakers that had to be shipped. If I did, I would ship via a moving company, rather than a common carrier.

As a buyer, I am sympathetic to sellers that ask for F&F, and purchased a Naim Supercap for several thousand dollars last month F&F. It’s certainly not for everyone, but to believe that there are not a ton of transactions happening this way is simply uninformed thinking.

There are also some great dealers of used gear for the risk averse, TMR and ECHO are both excellent.

(+1 @ elliottbnewcombjr)

The answer is simple -

Include the cost of VISA, PP or other secure transactions (usually 3%) when negotiating the final cost (including shipping) of the offered item(s).

All buyers - NEVER use PP F&F, cash, or direct payments. 

All sellers - please know that requiring F&F, cash, etc. nearly eliminates the opportunity for a sale of your equipment.  I/we will never buy from you...

Case closed.

Thanks for the responses!

Reverb did a good job helping me, the buyer, when I received a damaged amp I bought on their site.

I’ve used escrow.com a half dozen times and it has worked flawlessly. 
 

I did encounter some resistance from prospective buyers, but in the end they all signed up and used it. 
 

As the buyer you could dictate that escrow.com is the only service you will use. If they want to make the sale and are willing to properly package the speakers they would probably not object. 

What kind of box will the speakers be in? Card board or wooden? My speakers were sent through DHL and arrived in good shape. 

The one time I received a total smashed mess, JVC Two Arm Plinth, TT81, Tonearm, Dust Cover, Feet of the Plinth, the poor unacceptable packaging was done by seller, the insurance I paid for was purchased by the seller, thus the claim had to be documented locally by me at a UPS USA service center, and then the claim had to be made by the seller with UPS Canada, it was a near disaster, 

I got help from my CC fraud Protection, and I therefore advise, use your best credit card to fund paypal or other purchases, get an invoice for goods, pay extra for paypal protection, split it or pay it all, have that protection, not friends and family.

Call your credit card company before the purchase, I confirmed protection when I bought a tonearm from Russia. I even confirmed coverage with Square Trade when I bought the arm a 3 yr warranty, which I used when I needed to have the arm rewired by VAS.

UPS Canada sold the seller insurance, then said invoice says 'vintage', "we do not insure antiques", and in any case it was not double boxed which they require,

Thank goodness I found Vlad, also in Canada, he knows what he is doing.

One of the UPS Pack and Ship pair of AR-2ax speakers I did successfully came from Canada, went perfectly. 

I have used UPS Pack and Ship 3 times successfully. 

You find a UPS Pack and Ship near the seller

Give dimensions and weight to UPS, they give you a preliminary price.

Seller just protects them while dropping off at UPS in your name, they can even deliver unpackaged.

UPS gives you the final price, a bit less or a bit more than the estimate. You pay, so it is in your name, not the sellers. UPS is directly responsible for packaging, damage protection, delivery. 

1 object, and 2 pairs of speakers arrived in perfect condition.

Many sellers are currently trying to limit their liability. The migration to PayPal friends and family from goods and services is a good example. I would think that very few sellers would agree to an escrow service and that would limit the pool of available gear fOR you to purchase, YMMV and IMHO.