Disclosure: being new to this hobby, I don't have a lot of experience either way with this. My dealer told me to burn my stereo in and not to listen too critically at first, and I followed his advise. As a result, I have no idea whether or not my system 'burned in'. Furthermore, I hope no one construes my last post to mean that I disavow science. I am much more likely to believe an explanation grounded in science than one based in faith (especially if that faith is based on frail human perception). |
I wasn't aware that your experience has been a refudation of burn-in. On the other hand, we could take a symetrical argument and explain your perception. Perhaps your aural memory is such that the gradual changees introduced in the burn in period escape its notice. Perhaps your perception changs along with the piece. I've made up my mind that I want to do a double blind on this (knowing in advance the arguments against that methodology). I was wondering if you have? In regards to: I could easily be converted by converted by evidence more substantive than anecdotal; I think it's important to remember that science begins with the observation, the anecdotal evidence. Reality (if such a thing exists) determines the collection of imperfect models that we call science, not vice-versa. But then again I suppose mathmaticians are always a little skeptical of something so temporary as physics (grin). |
Burn-in is not a case of beating your ears into submission. Of course many horrible things can at first be tolerated and eventually even liked (smoking, drinking), but most people who participate at Audiogon have the sense to leave plenty of time between critical listening to allow for a change to be accurately heard. Some items don't require as much burn-in as others. My Harmonic Technology cables had me worried for a while, but changed dramatically at the 85 hour point. Why not trust your ears instead of denying the reality of burn in? As a writer/producer for 28 years I have had to use my ears in critical applications hundreds of times requiring much more sensitivity than merely hearing a difference in a cable after 100 hours use. I think the "wishful thinking" might possibly be on your part Waldhorner. Life would be that much simpler for Audiophiles if burn in was not a factor in evaluations. You can try comparing two of the same cables at first and breaking in only one, then comparing them again. Even if the difference after break in in is difficult to articulate, I suggest you "trust your feelings" Waldhorner. Good listening and Happy Holidays to all. |
Glad this is still going,and nobody has hired a hitman,(or have they?).On the subject of the frog turning into a prince:When I got my Aerial cc3; new, 'twas un listenable.Actually, HORIBLE !I pieced an old cd player/receiver/wires; stuck it all in the closet;threw some blankets over it;cranked it;left it on repeat.After 5 days, the volume was considerably louder.(Never touched the setting.)3 more days;the prince emerged. On burning in most all equipment,the bass is the easy "identifiable". You ( I ) can tell,just walking in the room,don't have to sit down and strain.While different pieces vary;some actually do the frog/prince thing. |
Redkiwi: We're not talking complete systems here. But rather the supposedly perceived subtle manipulations of individual pieces.// Yes, but a video of a duck meets all of those criteria and yet is not a duck. As to denying "burn in",as implied before; It's not good science and it is not supported by many other's experiences(including mine). So, when science and experience agree, it is reasonable to me to accept. This is not a matter of taste.I am, however, open to change if it can be so demonstrated. I do agree that it is time to move on. Pax |
Waldhorner, your existentialism does not make an argument - it could be applied to argue all stereos sound the same and we are just deluded in believing otherwise. I just figure if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck - then I am happy to figure it must be a duck and move on. |
No Redkiwi, we actually do live in the same world. Perhaps that's the fundamental issue. We don't see reality in the same way. But that's ok. And why would only "new" equipment change over time. Robba used a turn of phrase which, I think, hits the mark. I.e., the listener is being burned in. And Robba, for the purposes of this discussion, it makes all the difference. I could easily be converted by evidence more substantive than anecdotal. Also, Redkiwi; have you never listened to the identical source and setup and heard it differently? Isn't that a common experience for you? And if it is, do you attribute it to never ending change in you hardware, or perhaps to the highly variable nature of your natural apparatus? (Of course, we're not talking about tubes or electro-mechanical devices.) |
Waldhorner - what are you, some sort of objectivist :)? Having never done a controlled test to see if I could hear the effects of burn-in, I cannot comment on the objective nature (but since I have occasion to buy new interconnects soon, perhaps I'll post a follow-up then). I will say that subjective evidence does seem to point to an (almost) universal acceptance of a change in perception which is undergone in the first few weeks of owning equipment. I will offer to you the idea that decoding the musical text is inherently a subjective experience and so even purely subjective factors are 'real'. If it is indeed the listener being 'burned in' and not the equpment, does it matter? Separately, I would note that structural properties of various materials (notably metal) do change as you apply electrical current through the material, but I concede that it's difficult (for me) to believe that these most changes would not be heard within a few minutes of applying current. |
I got a pair of cherry silver cables (0.5m), and there was downright _sibilance_ when I first listened to them. After burning them in, the sibilance went away, and the cables overall became smoother, although still missing a little bottom end. That's when I stopped being a skeptic. |
Waldhorner, if you have ever bought anything new and not heard it change over time then you and I will agree on at least one thing - we live in different worlds. |
Whether or not "burn in" is subjectively valid is for the individual to decide for him/her-self. I've never seen any objective proof for this claim and I would find it difficult (but not impossible) to believe that any respondent here has done sufficiently rigorous testing to validate such a claim. And I believe that anyone who could reliably distinguish between virgin wire and "burned-in" wire (e.g.), and prove it, could make a small fortune with such wagers. I know that I'd place a bet. And while they're establishing that they could also demonstrate that wire has unique electron flow characteristics for each direction. This type of thinking reminds me of how I felt about my first car when it was just washed and waxed. It always seemed to run better when it looked better. Of course, this remains, like so many things audio, a matter of opinion for many. When in fact, the truthfulness of the matter can be tested to satisfaction for anyone willing to accept the results. But, I also realize that words on a screen represent no proof what-so-ever. So, when applicable, for the purposes of civility. We can agree to disagree regarding this. I have to exclude tubes which have been "burned in" so long as to be considered well aged. Their properties may have changed enough to be audible. |
Hi Waldhorner; When I get a new IC, cables, component etc., I make notes about the music quality/character of my system with the new piece right away. Then a few days to a couple of weeks later I critically listen and make notes again, and of course compare the two. I suppose you could argue that you've just gotten used to the new sound in two weeks, but the questions to ask are: (1) is there any difference?, (2) do I like it? (3) is it fatiguing? etc. If you use music that you're intimately framiliar with you'll know. Cheers. Craig |
I have taken some flack for my view on burn in, but here is MHO. I do believe in burn in... I do I do I do. I agree with most of what has been said above, which is in line with my experiences. I do not believe that something which sounds absolutely dreadful out of the box will be "transformed" into something wonderful by something like 100 hours of use. You may go from dreadful to marginally acceptable, and someone may have experienced something different, but I do not believe this would be the average, everyday experience. |
Well Waldhoerner if you don't have a "broken in" unit to compare to the new and you don't have an A pair and B pair and a cable enhancer like 1953 and you are at the sole discretion of your ears and you have a decent aural memory, assuming you have heard a "broken in" unit it might go something like Supreme Court Justice Harry Blackmun's decision on pornography back in the early 70's, "I can't describe it I just know it when I see it". Well that could be paraphrased to your question something like "I don't know if it's "burned in" yet but will when I hear it". Most of these things are gradual improvements that just become evident over extended listening. Sometimes not at all. Or maybe they do but you really don't notice the change until you can compare it with a new identical item. I have done that and noticed differences at that point. The wishful thinking comes into play when you hope that the amount you spent on the item was worth purchasing it in the first place! |
I once had a 2 meter pair of Nordost SPM interconnects cut in two and reterminated by Nordost into two 1 meter pairs. One pair sounded about the same as before, but the second pair needed almost a month of constant playing before they sounded like the other pair (more harsh at first). I concluded burn-in of cables may be from one end to the other, so one half was still burned in, the other like new. |
Check out the thread...burn in Vs. getting used to a sound. |
To conduct an experiment with new -vs- broken in on the cheap... Pick up two sets of Radio Shack Gold IC's. They are are sold in sets of two for under $15.00 at my local RS (mine were different primary colors). Break in one set and then compare them to the other. If you have SS equipment I would say that the sound that they have before break in is "tuby" (not good tuby, but tuby nonetheless). I once used then to patch our mini system into the main rig and found that in the beginning they sounded like my old tube equipment (like the equipment used to sound when I had replaced "all" of the tubes at once with new ones). Tubes used to be inexpensive and I used to replace then all at once (did the same with my guitar amps as well). The "tube" sound wears off as they break in (quickly in the first 12 to 20 hours from my experience). I even switched to the unused pair at one point just to hear this sound again (kind of liked the illusion). |
Actually, I had a chance to do a side by side comparison a couple of years ago. I had gotten two identical lengths of brand new Kimber 4TC speaker wire. I was going to bi-wire my speakers. I wanted to make sure the wire sounded all the same so I listened to each run in mono, single wired. No differences. Then I listened in stereo, single wired. Again no differnece between pairs. Well, I was going away for vacation for 10 days and decided to put one pair on my old Duo-Tech cable enhancer. The other pair was left connected to the speakers. I came back, listened to the system for a while and then changed out the "green" 4TC for the "aged" 4TC. Oh my...what a difference! Immediate and obvious improvements in smoothness, dynamics and soundstage. I went back and forth several times to make sure and even bi-wired in mono. Yep, the differences were still there and still obvious. This was one of the most dramatic demonstrations of "burn in" I've encountered. |
Waldhorner's thread is somewhat extreme, but there is a measure of truth within. The ear/brain can deliver the ultimate decision, but it's a system that is easily fooled. My recommendation is accept this as a "fact" and go on about listening to the music. Stop worrying, stop making sense. |
Dear Waldhorner: you're not serious are you ? / of course not / you're Waldhorner. I'm trying to get my state disability compensation for my hearing loss;but I still have enough left to hear break in.I got a used power cord naturally all broken in.I plugged it into the system.The "ride"-post office cross country-jangles things up.It took about 15/20 min. for the power chord to shine. Just my observation; new speaker cables and ics take about 6 days of 24 hrs before the bass developes .Waiting for the rose bud to open. |
the next time you buy equipment (particurlarly an amp) from a dealer (which may be a while given the deals floating around here), open up the box, take out your new gear, plug it in and compare it right then and there to the dealer's demo. sometimes the differneces are subtle, other times they are not. it's hard to suggest what to listen for, as different components burn in differently. it's probably a safe bet to suggest that you listen for a less harsh, more fluid sound. do it right then and there (warm your new peice up if you think it necessary). otherwise, that spectre of acclimation may well affect your judgment. cheers. |
