Hi Lecram,
Funny since I was to write a similar post. I have a pair of refurbished Apogee Duetta Signatures powered by Krell FPB-350 MCX monoblocks. The Bryston 28 bsst2 and Classe 600 monoblocks are some of the amps I am looking into to eventually replace my Krells. Looking forward to the replies of the Gon community.
Both you and I understand the quality power requirements of these planar speaker are requesting :-) |
Hi dasign
May i know your reason why you want to move on from your krell 350mcx? I am actually satisfied with my krells but am wondering if the brystons or the new classe to be better than the older 10 year old designs from krell?
Hoping for advise from the experts who have heard these amplifiers
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I have done modds to my krell 700cx, it has a modern day high resolution sound now that is just uncanny compaired to what it did sound like, the amps mentioned by all of you here to me would not come close to comparison to what this krell is doing for performance now, just my opinion, for what it is worth. |
Hi Lecram,
Altough I like my Krells, I would like to have a beefier SS amp with latest design technology. The Krells still sound very good but are getting old, even tough I have recently recapped them.
The Bryston was favorably rated in The Absolute Sound magazine by HP as well as the Classe 600 Watt Monos. Just time to change :-) and these are great contenders. |
I share the same reasons for changing amps as you are dasign, looked at the internals of both bryston and classe, and both doesnt have the sophistcated internals compared to the older krells, wondering if simpler circuit is much better, but look at the krell transformer size, really really huge as compared to the newer brystons and classe.
Hope someone can shed some light... |
Good luck boys
That 700cx. ..is it in Canada. ..and recently purchased from ontario off of canuck audio mart. .
If so it was mine and sold it to jim then to Alberta it went I think...
It is a incredible amp and donnot think those simplier designs will better it ...if you want warranty then thats about all you will gain.
Good luck
Merry Xmas |
I am using a magnepan mg 20.7, i was wondering if the bryston 28bsst2 is in the same league or better than my older krell fpb700? That's the question for you to answer. IMO, I much prefer modern day SS sound. More open, less dark, less grain ... I'm the biggest Krell amp fan but will not waste $$ recapping old Krells. You should also add Hegel H30 to your list. |
Hi Mclsound, I got a good laugh, + 1, I agree entirely with your post. |
Mclsound
Confusion I think,these people already own older Krell amps and are asking opinions on the newer Bryston flagship monoblocks or perhaps Classe.
Best
George |
Audiolabyrinth,
Just curious, what have you modyfied on your Krell? On my side, I got rid of the fixed AC cords and installed a Furutech Rodhium AC inlet and used Shunyata Anaconda CX power cords. Also installled Bybee AC purifiers at the input of the primary of the AC transformers. Got me greater resolution from bass to treble, increase in soundstage and lower noise floor. These mods are effective while keeping the original design unaltered. |
Audiolabyrinth,
Just curious, what have you modyfied on your Krell? On my side, I got rid of the fixed AC cords and installed a Furutech Rodhium AC inlet and used Shunyata Anaconda CX power cords. Also installled Bybee AC purifiers at the input of the primary of the AC transformers. Got me greater resolution from bass to treble, increase in soundstage and lower noise floor. These mods are effective while keeping the original design unaltered. |
Hi dasign, I had krell do a special job to my amp, every capacitor in the entire amp was replaced by caps that are not oem to this model krell, these caps were not available in 2005, then I also had the power supplies tweaked, I have sent this amp back to krell a few times for further mods, costly!, anyway, funny you have said something about Furutech, LOL!, I have the Furutech GTX-D Rhodium outlet on my digital now, however, I just did a vey long a/b testing with the Gold and Rhodium GTX-D outlet's for the 700cx here, agonizing actually, I must have changed wpo's in the wall between four different wpo's 25 times or more, I am not kidding about that, I am also addresseing the wall plug on the fixed ac cord, I do not know where to get an IEC done on this amp, krell does not have any more back plates for the amp, and they do not do machine work on the back plates for this amp for customers, unless you could help, I am getting the Furutech FI-50 Rhodium wall plug, also, I am putting a 30 amp single pole breaker on my amp as krell specified, krell claim's that the amp will run smoother and have a bigger better sound stage, I do have the 3/1 solid core copper 10 awg Romex I installed myself, so everything is set for the single pole 30 amp breaker, currently, I have a Tara Labs Cobalt with oyaide termination's power cord on my digital with the first GTX-D R is, also, I am putting the synerjistic research REDS fuses in the amp, one of my next moves, krell sent me a hand wrench to take the top plate off, I will have to have four of the directional fuses, large fast blow fuses, exspensive here too, $400.00 for the 4 of them, as you can see, I am still building here, the bulk of the modds have been done, but I am further tricking this amp out, any advice is welcome, thankyou for you reply, Happy new year. |
Audiolabyrinth,
Your my kind of audiophile :-). I had the same issue asking Krell to install IEC inlet to the back of my monoblocks. Gave me the same reasons they gave you. So I decided to do the job myself. Basically you need some basic electronics skills (I'm a qualified technician) to cut incoming AC wires inside the amp. This will leave you with a big whole in the backplate once you take off the dedicated AC cord. Draw the exact slot you will need to install the Furutech inlet and drill as much wholes you can and finish up with a series of metal files to get rid of remaining metal. This is a painstaking job which will take you a few hours. If you do this job migth as well do the Bybee AC purifiers.
All my wall plates are Furutech, Rhodium for the amps and gold for the rest. Running dedicated 15 A breakers for each amp. I have tried the Synergistic Research Red fuses on my DAC and they are worth all the money. I will install them in my Krell as well.
I may change my mind now about replacing these babies, with all the love and work put in to these :-) |
Hi Lecram,
I have had my Bryston 28B SST2 monos for several years now and I am still very happy with it.
Going by what you already have, the Brystons are a good match with the Maggies and Jadis tubed preamp. Maggies are usually demoed at shows with Bryston amps. The Brystons can sound a wee bit dry, so mating it with the Jadis would balance things out quite nicely. I use a Jeff Rowland preamp which provides a nice touch of warmth to my system.
Of course, if you have any opportunity to bring either the Brystons or another Krell home for an audition before committing, that would be ideal.
Happy listening. J. |
I guess we can hear from Lecram whether he would like to mod his old krell amps. |
Hi Dasign, I recieved the Furutech GTX-D R early, saturday, Thought about burning it in on the refrigerator, then it dawned on me that the Krell 700cx would cook the outlet quicker, he,ha,he,,,, installed brand new out the box, I was in awe, very pleased, a complete Furutech GTX-D Rhodium set-up was incredible!, made the amp sing like it was a whole more costlier amp, I could not believe it, you see, when I auditioned the Rhodium on the 700cx with the Rhodium that is now on the digital, I had a bass suck out, my only explaination is that when I kept the 20 amp industrial wpo on the digital while I a/b the Gold and rhodium on the krell, the Rhodium's did not work with mixing outlet's, there is no other answer here, also Dasign, I did mix the Furutech GTX-D Gold and Rhodium on the same system, that my friend was the worst sound ever, talking about a train wreck, they were actually working against each other, one pulling one way, the other the other way with sound, useing all the same furutech GTX-D Rhodium's in my system is a complete hit and home run, incredible sounding, I am shocked really,this sounds so good now, I cannot imagine the out come with complete burn-in of the two, the first Rhodium that is on the digital has 300hrs on it now, lol, the new one has 3 hrs, get this, when I first started burning in the first Rhodium, it was bright for 3 hrs listening through head phones, that went away after the initial 3 hrs, so for the brand new one not to be bright, and have the best bass I ever herd out of a krell, this is incredible to me, I can just jug along and listen to the system, it's very listenable now, that is the incredible part of what I am saying., about those sr-reds, they are directional Dasign, I talked to the inventor/designer of the fuses the at the Sr factory, you have to flip the fuses one way to the other one at a time to find out which direction sounds best, you have to get all four fuses direction correct for full potential sound performance, that is what sr factory told me, have you done this?, if not, best to do it to get your potential out of the fuses, thankyou for the kind words, look forward to your reply. |
Dasign, also, I have here new in the box, the furutech GTX wall frame and cover plate for the krell, I am going to waite for full burn-in of the two Rhodium's before I install the wall frame and cover plate, I want to listen for so called improvement's of the frame and cover plate, if I hear a good discernable difference when I do the install, well then, I will buy another frame and cover plate for the digital, do you have the frame's and cover plate's?, if so, please give some feed back on these. |
Audiolabyrinth,
Wow! You bought really good stuff with the GTX-D R. I purchased 2 FP-15A R version for my wallplate and used the regular plastic cover plate. I looked at the GTX-D (R) but it was double the price of the FP. Remember I need 2 of them with the monoblocks. I am happy to hear that the GTX work great for you. Would like to hear more from you on the GTX wallplate, which can also be installed on any Furutech receptacle. Might be interested in trying these also if they work out for you. When putting quality AC voltage or AC accesories improving AC line quality in front of the Krells, they will let you know :-)
Did not know that the SR red fuses had any polarity. Will try this when I have a minute. |
Hi Dasign, The furutech wall frame's and matching cover plate is more exspensive than any Furutech wpo!, A whoping $265.00 for the set-up, now you may understand as to why I said I was going to fully burn-in the wpo's before I do the install of the frame and cover plate, I want to hear exactly what the frame and cover plate do before I make the decision to buy another set-up, Dasign, I would call SR company and get full diclosure of advise on the red's install like I did, they can explain the same as I did, but a phone call is better than email or posting, yes, I will make sure I give you full feed back on the frame and cover plate, this will be quite awhile, these wpo's take a very long time to burn-in, I have been told 500 to 700 hrs, ouch!, BTW, The GTX-D R is worth every penny that you pay for them and much more, I am telling you, synergy match for the krell's, reply when you can, cheers. |
Guys i am not from the US, im from a jungle in asia, hahaha, so modding my krell would be close to impossible, i do know the older service tech doing repairs here for krell in our country, i am not sure how many caps needs to be replaced for full recapping though, and the approx cost of the parts and the amount of labor to be done.
Before i have owned bryston 4bsst2 driving mg 1.7, when i bought the used fpb700 and compared it with the 4bsst2, the krell was a lot better then, warmer, relaxed and more musical, but was thinking this is the smaller brystons and thought maybe the 28bsst2 would be a lot better than the 4Bsst2.
If i can find a jeff rowland 8tihc here in our country i would also be interested, i do know the dealer have sold i think 3 units here back in the 90's, maybe i should hunt the owners down and make an offer? Thought the rowlands might also mate well witht he jadis pre... |
Hi Lecram,
I had my 2 FPB 350 MCX recapped for $750/amp if I recall correctly. I've opened up the Krells a few times and I would only give that job to Krell factory and nobody else. There is a lot of boards to be taken apart and once caps are replaced, there is probably a few DC bias adjustments to be done. If the tech you know did local Krell repairs, you migth want to contact him to see what is exactly involved.
So if the 4 BssT2 did not sound as good as your Krell FPB 700, I would like to think that the 28 Bsst2 would best the 4 Bsst2, but by how much? Would also think that the Bryston house sound would also be kept in the 28 Bsst2...Would the 28 Bsst2 be better than your Krell? That is the question... |
Audiolabyrinth,
I've just ordered my SR Red fuses for my Krell monoblocks. Will take 2 weeks to come in. Will keep you posted on the results. |
Hi Lecram, there is some up-grades you can do your self, warning, takes 700hrs to full burn-in, however, you will be shocked at the out come, it is a must for you to get the Furutech GTX-D Rhodium outlets on your entire system, and get the furutech FI-50 Rhodium power cord plug for the Krell and plug it into the furutech GTX-D rhodium outlet, wala, magic man!!!!!!, you will hear a substantial improvement at 250 hrs out of the 700 hrs, get back to me on the cable thread, Tara Labs cables if you do this huge on the cheap up-grade, it's like a componet change, brings the best out of krell for sure, cheers. |
Hi Lecram, I took a peek at the Bryston 28B sst2 mono blocks, the noise floor is right below 115db, and the transformers for the power supply is a mere 2,000 kva in each amp, the stock form krell 700cx has two 4,000 kva transformers in the power supply that is a total of 8,000 kva, and the stock form noise floor to the 700cx is 120db, so no, I do not believe spending nearly $20,000.00 on these amp's are worth it period, really, your 700cx will out perform most amp's in the $20,000.00 class range anyway,The 700cx is class A, and the Bryston is class a/b, also, the bryston does 1,000 watts, the 700 cx will do 1,800 watts a channel to your speakers on a 2ohm load, krell did us all a favor on the original price for the 700cx, a bargain for real, they could have got alot more money for these amp's compaired to what is available today. |
01-03-15: Audiolabyrinth
Hi Lecram, I took a peek at the Bryston 28B sst2 mono blocks, the noise floor is right below 115db, and the transformers for the power supply is a mere 2,000 kva in each amp, the stock form krell 700cx has two 4,000 kva transformers in the power supply that is a total of 8,000 kva, and the stock form noise floor to the 700cx is 120db, so no, I do not believe spending nearly $20,000.00 on these amp's are worth it period, really, your 700cx will out perform most amp's in the $20,000.00 class range anyway,The 700cx is class A, and the Bryston is class a/b, also, the bryston does 1,000 watts, the 700 cx will do 1,800 watts a channel to your speakers on a 2ohm load, krell did us all a favor on the original price for the 700cx, a bargain for real, they could have got alot more money for these amp's compaired to what is available today. But which one SOUNDS better? Are you familiar with the Bryston? |
Hi Joecasey, yes, I have listened to Bryston many times, most of what they make is good for the money, however, The krell 700cx is better sounding to me than the 28B, this is preferance, I like the sound of class A amplification, there are many older amp's out there that has a better sound than new amp's of today, I have seen 20 year old tube amp's sound incredible with 1940's nos tubes, it's not like amplification has done leap's and bound's with technology like digital of today has,this is my opinion, we all have different opinion's. |
01-04-15: Audiolabyrinth
Hi Joecasey, yes, I have listened to Bryston many times, most of what they make is good for the money, however, The krell 700cx is better sounding to me than the 28B, this is preferance, I like the sound of class A amplification, there are many older amp's out there that has a better sound than new amp's of today, I have seen 20 year old tube amp's sound incredible with 1940's nos tubes, it's not like amplification has done leap's and bound's with technology like digital of today has,this is my opinion, we all have different opinion's. I much prefer modern day SS and tube amplification. Yep, to each his own. |
Zero chance I'd replace a Krell FPB 700 for a Bryston. Zero. |
Joecasey, The krell 700cx is not obsolete by no means, my amp is totally new with 2014 internal part's, it is modded by krell them self's, just the inside I put $4,000.00 into at this point, and looking to add another $400.00 inside as well, the outside tweak's are nearing $1,300.00 just in top Furutech product's, my chassis is also in new condition, mint, 10/10. |
The Bryston 28B SST2 is the one enquired by Lecram, not the first generation 28B. The SST2 version sounds a whole lot different and better. |
Hi HK_fan, I enjoyed your post, my sentiment's exactly, +1, I agree with you. |
My only concern with my krell fpb700 is its reliability in the coming years since it is nearing 10 years already, but if the consensus is that if the 700 cx is better than the 28bsst2, then i would gladly live with the krell forever and cross my fingers it will not break down in the next 5 years at least,
Its nice if i could just comoare both side by side. But im quite happy with the krell amp paired with a jadis jps2 pre amp... |
My only concern with the Bryston is if it's able to drive a load lower than 4 Ohms. Otherwise, it puts out great sound. However, in that price range, and even cheaper, there are other excellent amps that deserve an audition. |
Hi Lecram, At this point, I have put $4,000.00 recently into the inside of my 700cx, very well worth every penny too, and I am going to ride off into the sunset with this amp, it's all new, with modded capacitors and tweaked power supply, I might put the SR reds fuses inside, another $400.00, I am conterplating If there is a need?, also if you put a single pole 30 amp breker on this amp, play for 17 to 20 hrs for burn-in, you will be amused at how much better a 700cx sounds and runs extremly cooler doing this, when you do this 30 amp breaker, have a furutech GTX-D Rhodium outlet on it, these wpo's take 500 to 700 hrs to break-in, however, after 165 hrs, you will enjoy the sound, the wpo opens up a bit to enjoy, and the the furutech GTX-D R does not warm up or get hot with this much current like most wpo's do,best $5.00 that the breaker cost that I ever spent in audio, I would have paid $300.00 for what $5.00 did, it's a win! |
Is there a question of reliability, get it fixed if it breaks down! I mean really, come on guys, listen to the amps.... Is it a better fit for your speakers? Is it a better match for system? How does it sound at your preferred listening levels? If your trying to break your eardrums, either amp can probably help you do that, if your trying to get perferred results with your given equipment at your listening preference, then do what any smart buyer would do.... Bring it home and listen for a couple weeks and put back your Krells and hear what you think! |
Hi Lecram,
One thing to consider in making your decision, of course, is impedance matching between your Jadis preamp and the Bryston 28B-SST2. From what I can gather, the JPS2 has an output impedance of 1.5K ohms. The 28B has an input impedance of 15K single-ended or 15.5K balanced. Typical rule of thumb says 10X at a minimum is needed on the amp-side, and many people prefer 20X or more to prevent distortion and dynamic compression. So, that puts the 28B right at the edge of compatible with your preamp, perhaps too close for comfort. It might sound just fine but you really should try before you buy. Just thought I'd point out this possible issue, since no one has mentioned it in the thread.
All that being said, the 28B is an excellent amp. I've been using a pair with a VAC Phi Beta preamp (output impedance of 200 ohms) for a few years and really enjoy them. For comparison, I also have a VAC 300.1a tube amp and a Reference Line Silver Signature, which is a boutique pure class A, solid state amp from the late 1990s. The 28Bs more than hold their own against these others, to the point where I've been unable to part with the Brystons despite their obvious redundancy in my system. Never heard the Krell, though, so I can't make a direct comparison to that well-regarded piece.
Good luck. |
That should say 16.5K balanced for the Brystons. Please excuse the typo. |
The op's krell is 100Kohms, his pre-amp will never be an issue, does not have single ended input's because his amp is a true pure class A Balanced amp, it only has Krell cast other than Balanced. |
I agree that the Bryston 28B SST2's input impedance may be challenging to some preamps but specs tell only part of the story. My previous preamp, the Jeff Rowland Capri S2 is spec'd at 80 ohms. While this is more than the 20 times rule for the Brystons, the Capri seems to struggle and the volume setting has to go to almost 80-90% of max to achieve satisfactory levels. When stretched to this point, the Capri begins to sound strained and compressed. That said, my speakers, Vienna Acoustics' The Musik need lots of power to sound good at healthy SPL's. I believe the Maggies need just as much power or even more.
After switching to my current preamp, the Ayre K-5xeMP, which is spec'd at 50 ohms output impedance, I am not sure whether the 30 ohm difference is significant but my ears tell me it indeed is, and very much so. With the Ayre in the chain, music flows effortlessly, dynamics are fabulous with no compression. And I very rarely need to go beyond 50% of max volume setting for everything to sound "just right".
But to reiterate what has been repeated too often, try before you buy, if you can, that is. Sometimes, a home audition with a side-by-side comparison within the context of your own system, may be luxury that is hard to come by.
Cheers! J. |
Uh, right. I think he already knows that his present amp is compatible with his present preamp. |
just saying, the Bryston whatever amp is inferrior period! |
Who would argue with "inferrior period"? |
No argument there.
God has spoken.
Amen. |
Here's a link that may be of interest :-
ftp://ftp.bryston.com/pub/reviews/Aust_HiFi_July_Bryston_2014.pdf |
I have just revisited this thread and found a lot more interesting comments, for now i still live with my krell and bought another speaker used here in agon, the B&W 801D, another speaker that needs the power of the Krells. Now will just concentrate and channel the funds into remodelling and acoustic treatments in my room, hope the project improves my overall sound..
thanks to all they guys for the inputs,
NOW i want a pair of Electrocompaniet Nemo monoblocks for my two dream speakers, the maggie 20.7 and the B&w 801d, so blessed to be able to acquire these two wonderful speakers
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Personally I haven't liked Bryston anytime I've heard them....too brittle with a plasticy overtone.....Krells on the other hand are mellow with very strong bass (talking of older Krells...haven't heard new ones) I like and use Ayre which has no or little coloration of its own
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Stringreen,
i feel the same way about my older bryston 4bsst2, compared to the krell fpb 700, but iwas please with the overall sound of my other system consisting of bryston 4bsst2, cary slp-05 mated to a M&K S150mk2, but never like it that much as compared when the maggie 1.7 were connected
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