Right now the only criticism I can aim at them is a slight sibilance in the higher ranges of the human voice along with the boominess in certain low frequencies of the human voice. Tomorrow I hope to see if the sibilance can be eliminated with less toe-in, while also trying to decrease the lower voice frequency boominess by moving further off one of the walls. Hopefully this is possible without the center of the soundstage becoming too diffuse...
In any case, it's still worlds better than my current setup. |
Tompoodie, to respond directly to your criticism of the 803 D3, after spending another few hours with them. I would wonder if they were not set up well or were too close to the walls. My experience with them listening to a few recordings with excellent acoustic segments (Nora Jones first album, Grateful Dead reckoning, Allman Brothers Eat a Peach Album) is that they were exceedingly realistic. They sound like what a guitar sounds like when I'm in the room playing with other musicians, to the point where the positioning of fingers on the neck corresponded with placement in the soundstage. It doesn't get any better than that in my experience. The last speaker I had that was close to that level of realism was the Revel Salon2. My current setup unfortunately is not on par with the Salon2 or the 803 D3.
To be honest, they are exceedingly difficult to set up. They are not very forgiving at all from my experience today. I am going back again tomorrow to try to fine tune the positioning some more. I may purchase them if I can get rid of a slight boominess in some of the lower voice frequencies. Instruments were insanely lifelike, as well as the human voice in most keys, except where there was some boominess in lower keys. Attack, decay, and separation of instruments was all spot on. The soundstage was large and impressive. I found the experience of listening to the music was engaging and immersive. Several tracks that I love were so life like that it gave me the chills. It reminds me that it's extremely important for people to know how to set up speakers in a room themselves on the fly, or to at least be able to realize when a setup is suboptimal.
I'm back with my regular speakers right now and the 803 D3 experience is leaving my regular system sounding quite unidimensional in comparison. The attack and decay are not as precise and the separation between instruments and notes is not as coherent. :/ |
Overall, I hope these responses will help out our comrade, Tom. If learning to fly a jet plane was compared to learning the steps to audio nirvana, many of us would have crashed and burned long ago.
Unfortunately, no matter how many audio primers and product reviews there are, there are as many if not more obstacles to overcome to finding the sound quality you enjoy and more importantly, find just right. |
Sunnyjim, you tell it like it is !
A 1300$ of Rega RS-3 sounds better. |
I totally agree with most that is said above.
I found all B&W speakers I have heard for the last 10 years unbalanced, unnatural, colored and not enjoyable to listen to.
I even heard them combining the downfall of laid back and forward at the same time. Sounding dull overall en too forward in a certain part of the sound spectrum at the same time.
I owned a 800 series B&W in a time I did not know any better.
And I had listening fatigue even a year after I sold them.
Must sound like a joke, but in a way it is true.
They always portrayed a certain edge or harsh strain that I battled to get away as long as I owned them.
Resulting in selling them and having some kind of listening trauma.
Had to listen for a year to ultra-smooth systems afterwards for my listening focus to be balanced again. (I am probably the only one who understands me right now)
I read B&W defenders stating a lot that the combining gear is the answer for the mentioned B&W "flaws", but I can't agree.
The combining gear will have an influence on how obvious the typical B&W flaws will be in the sound, but I never heard them without. At least not in loudspeakers produced in the last 15 or so years. |
BTW, I would love to find a pair of these on sale or discounted once they've been out for a bit. I'm a ready buyer when they come along at the right price... |
I listened to the 803 D3 earlier today. The sound quality was incredible. The room setup was a bit small, and whoever set them up put them close to the wall, which caused the mid-range (voices especially) to sound muffled and raspy, and caused the bass to be boomy. I quickly used the WASP setup method and found a much better placement. I'm sure with more time and tweaking I could have fine tuned them more, but oh well, the Best Buy employee was giving me an odd look already.
Once set up decently they sounded spectacular to me. The high frequency was incredible. The sounds of symbols and high hats were realistic. Their decay sounded authentic to me as a musician. What impressed me the most was that the notes across all ranges had a correct sound to their decay. Musicians used to playing instruments through crappy speakers, and who don't play acoustically, may not notice it, but the decay on instruments were as close to the real thing as I have ever heard without it being an acoustic instrument in the room with me. The room was not conducive to a large soundstage like I would have available in my apartment. I plan on going back and playing with the toe-in, as they were set up pointed directly at the listening position in Best Buy. I'm excited to bring some of my own CDs and experiment with the setup a bit to see how wide a soundstage these speakers can thrown without losing coherence in between the speakers.
BTW, I actually had a bottle of milk with me and it did not spoil.... LOL... |
I also have no idea where the "no bass below 50hz" thought comes from. Whether one considers the 800 series bright or not (I don't), I've never thought of them as light on the low end. The 805 Signature, just for one example, had great punch down low for the volume of the cabinet. The 800 floor standing models never sounded thin to me.
But if someone had it in their mind to shop B&W and wanted something absolutely un-bright, I'd tell them to listen to the PM1. Whether through SS or tube amps, I found them to be early Sonus Faber-warm. They were too warm for me, but others seem to love them.
The Proac Response series is another great British speaker, definitely not bright or edgy. |
Tompoodie,
like many before me have already written B&W sucks bug time. I dont think they know how to design a speaker. Right from my DM604S2 I didnt like them much at all. Personally I had some success with my DM604S2 but after about a yr & a half I sold them & never looked back. I've heard B&Ws several times at each RMAF I attended & at other showrooms (when I go back to India to visit my folks) & each time they've sucked. Bad sound. They got to pay me to use their speakers..... |
"I just sold my excellent floorstanders because I am tired of having broken balls and a broken back lugging them around, and trying to locate the ideal "sweet spot" in my 12 X15 room."
You realize you don't have to put them back in the closet upstairs after each use?
"So what should members do like Tom, who want to get away from this bright, fatiguing, unreal, edgy sound??"
For British speakers look at these: ProAc Response (the older models are fine.), Spendor S series, Living Voice, Mission, Rega, Monitor Audio, Audio Note
None of those have that hard to listen to quality you mention above. If you're willing to buy used, you should be able to find something at a reasonable price from any of those brands. |
I knew this guy once, he was a co-worker of my 2nd cousin's girlfriend's roommate, and he had a pair of B&W speakers. I heard that when he played music through them, the food in his refrigerator spoiled faster. With other speakers, his milk would last at least 2 weeks, but with B&W it went bad within 3 days. That's how bad they sounded. The speakers, not the milk.
(Given some of the lunacy in previous posts, I figured...if we're going to be looney tunes, let's really do it up right) |
OK, guys, so after my analysis above of the British invasion of bright speakers and the American market what is the solution?? Let's try to muster some answers.
Is KEF the answer, they make a R-300 monitor in almost the same price range as the B&W CM5S2. So what should members do like Tom, who want to get away from this bright, fatiguing, unreal, edgy sound?? Is ATC SM19 the answer coming in at $4300. or ProAc's Anniversary Tabelette (only the 12th iteration of its original cans) which is at least $3500 for its monitor size speakers?? (Take two tablets and call me in the morning?!? LOL)
Bryston ( yes, the electronics manufacturer) last year introduced two models that are described as monitors. The Mini T is about $2600, without stands. Anyone audition those speakers which promise good sound quality?? Epos speakers??? Maybe, the answer is to beg Advent, AR, and KLH to do some serious updates to their classic models. |
What I've found with the diamonds is it depends on the amp you use. I've heard the D2 on a pair of Krell Mono-Blocks and quickly left the room with my ears bleeding but I've also heard them on an Anthem P2 and loved them! The best I've heard them on was tube gear using ARC and Cary.
That comment of the speaker being bright my be relevant in your opinions but I always ask, are they actually bright or are you hearing information you normally don't?
I'm not sure about the no bass below 50hz comment, I've been around a lot of 802's and can't say i've had a comment of no lower octave bass. |
B&W are British speakers made for American consumer that built similar to American cars: Big, hard to handle and drive and consume lots of fuel and oil. |
Unfortunately, Tom, I think Bowers and Wilkins or B&W (whatever the name) has followwed the path of KEF, Rogers, and possibly a few other traditional British speakers, and are/have been playing to the America consumer ears of bright, possibly harsh sound. I owned a pair B&W Matrix3 MKII in 1988, and there were times I thought the top end sounded strident....and at the time I had a Conrad Johnson tube PV-8 pre-amp.
I loved those speaker, but after a while could not endure their sound. No, they were neither defective, nor underpowered; even though, I was a journey salesman in a high end audio store, and was able to buy a system for almost half off.
I think much of the quandary over excellent sound quality (call it euphonic, musical, engaging, easy to listen to) lies with the slow and anemic improvement in CD technology since 1985. Why, I have no idea!! If you spent $6000 to $10,000 beginning in early 1990's you probably got better sound. I had a Sonographe Beta 1 for years before buying a Rega Apollo. Both had their faults and limitations However, I worked to find a used mint Ayre CX 7E mp 2 (which sells new for $3700) I finally bought a used mint one on AG for $1750 and had it fully upgraded for $300. Good Deal!! I have to say it destroys every CD player I have heard in last 10 years under $7000.
So, crappy quality CD's together with the big software producers's "promise" of lower prices and better recorded CD and alternative formats sustained this venue. Whether this happened serendipitously or by corporate conspiracy to keep basically shit software in stores until along came the magic DAC, followed by computer audio, Music Servers, and the entire inventory of new equipment for a new "Golden Age Of Sound"...and of course sales of a variety of software sources, and related hardware to accommodate this new era.
My point is: when several venerable British companies saw that the warm smoky mellow sound and weak bass of their speakers was not cutting it any more, many changed their design and marketing strategies to produce a "JBL type" speaker sound to accommodate much of the lucrative North America market; these developments, unfortunately. collided, or intersected with the inertia of CD manufacturers to improve the sound of players without glare, edge, a shitload of digital artifacts. Rega and few other tried their best, but the truth lay in spotty amd inconsistent recording quality of CD's. Therefore, you and I and others are in a dilemma as what to do regarding speakers whether floor standing behemoths, or bookshelf to medium size monitors
I just sold my excellent floorstanders because I am tired of having broken balls and a broken back lugging them around, and trying to locate the ideal "sweet spot" in my 12 X15 room. Interestingly, I am looking for a high quality monitor to carrying most of the load of a classic rock, and jazz fusion CD collection. I am currently looking closely at the B&W CM-5S2 ($1800) or CM6 S2( more dough). I am almost literally shitting my pants that I am going to possibly buy an ear-bleeder (despite my price range of $2000-2500), and despite the so called changes in speaker technology.
However, I refuse to bite the bullet and buy one the newer Harbeth monitors which are lighting up the audio magazines nd blogs with many stellar reviews, or Devore speaker, with models ranging between a cool $4000 to $12,000,...or the Raidhho X-1 monitor for $14,000 plus Many members may rabidly disagree with me, but I have been around long enough to remember when the audio listening experience was fun, satisfying, and generally affordable. Good Luck!!! |
"10-12-15: Tompoodie
Title of my post should be Bowers and Wilkins...so used to just calling them B & W. Oops."
They still suck either way. |
Title of my post should be Bowers and Wilkins...so used to just calling them B & W. Oops. |
B&W speakers never had bass bellow 50hz. It's just another Bose or JBL where you can find one or two models that are actually OK. |
I have found that every B & W speaker I have auditioned over the past few years came across as bright, edgy and very fatiguing. |
