Have a look at Eichmann Ratio. KL (Keith Louis Eichmann) has used the Eichmann Ratio since 2000/2001 and it is indicated throughout the KLEI literature and KLEI Story.
as previously mentioned, above.
You would think all cable companies would know about this one.
are you suggesting that if cable companies don’t know this that they are just wire companies who believe that they know everything but really don’t know everything. Companies such as Dueland, WE, Belden, AQ, Nordost, Cardas, Tara and so many others (maybe even NASA).
Maybe there is only one that truly knows and the journey continues if we have enough money and time.
@lak - I’m always glad to hear when something this simple makes such a noticeable improvement for others. It’s not guaranteed for all systems - I’ve had varied feedback from others.
But it is such a simple change. You would think all cable companies would know about this one.
@williewonka alright I tried the above 2/2/18 suggestion and to my amazement, the music is more pronounced as if a veil was removed! Who would of thunk it! I need to spend more time listening to music in that system to really be able to describe the changes in sound. Thanks for the suggestion ;-)
@lak - I remember - here’s the text that I posted...
QUESTION: Have you ever tried using the 16 gauge for the signal on both LF and HF leads and then use the thicker 10 gauge as the neutral conductors of HF and LF leads.
The heavier gauge neutral works very well for me everytime
I'm using Montana EPX Speakers in my second system. I've experimented with them for 10 years or longer and every time I do I reach the same conclusion; they sound best to me with two runs of speaker cables (4 in total), one pair to the lower speaker terminal and a second pair to the upper speaker terminals. In this particular scenario, I like the Duelund 12 gauge going to the lower and the 16 gauge to the upper. Sounds better than a jumper to me.
@williewonka Thanks for the suggestion. I'm actually not making any jumpers however in a different KLE Banana thread I beleave you recommended I do something simmular qirh the two wuns of Duelund 16 gauge wire on the upper speaker treminals and 12 gauge on the lower termanils. I will have to try it.
During the development of my helix speaker cables I found that if I made the neutral conductor twice the gauge of the signal conductor it improved on sound quality.
I see from the images of their jumpers and high end cables that KLE Innovations employs a similar approach with their cables and jumpers.
Perhaps this would also be beneficial for your DIY jumpers?
Correct me if I'm wrong with my thinking here. If I have the KLE Bananas and use the same good Duelund wire that I used when making my speaker cables, let's say 5 inches of wire per two Bananas X 4, then I've made my own KLE Jumpers using Duelund wire?
I guess I prefer soldering to screws, although I am a bit lazy nowadays, but I guess everyone has a preference. I used to build alot of DIY amps, preamps, speakers, perhaps too many. There are lots of good components available, nowadays, so I find no real need to DIY, at least at the moment, to enjoy my music. I guess the main thing is that enjoying listening to music is also fun.
This has worked for me... you can use a small hobby vice, put a cheap banana upside down in the vice (like a Radio Shack banana), and put the back of the KLE banana pin onto the cheap banana pin held in the vice. Guess what, the vice acts like the third hand, that you mentioned, and you now have your 2 hands free to hold the wire, small screw driver, solder, and iron. The cheap banana held in the vice also acts as a useful heat sink. You can also do something like this to hold a circuit board to make soldering much easier.
Tin definitely oxidizes, doesn’t it? I am sure I have seen tin go quite blackish but maybe I am wrong. Just did a google and it appears that tin is resistant to oxidization but I wonder just how much and for how long.
Is this correct... the Duelund wire uses an oiled material which helps prevent wire oxidation and damps wire vibration?
The thread is about the KLE jumpers but I guess no one has tried them, as yet?
You must have three hands! One feeding solder, one holding the iron, and one holding the screwdriver. I like the idea a lot, but impossible to do while feeding solder. Can do it if just reheating and setting two more heavily tinned parts. Thanks for the tip!
I use tinned Duelund wire which won’t oxidize and still like the idea of a properly designed solderless banana. Wonder if the builder reads this thread? I sense he is.
I am still using and enjoying the KLE bananas as an adapter and I am still amazed at the improvement of the sound by using them as an adapter. It works and that is all that is important for me and that is great for us. I think that they are relatively cheap, relative to the sound improvement.
All part of the fun and quite amazing but I guess that we probably shouldn’t be surprised because there other products can also be quite amazing.
With soldering I use a small blade screwdriver to apply a small amount of pressure on the bare wire being soldered (next to the insulation) while soldering, especially as the solder is cooling. This is to ensure that the bare wire and metal surface have very good contact and that the solder acts as a holder and sealer of the wire and metal surface (joint) and does not act as a conductor of the joint. It is not good to rely on solder as the conductor of the joint as solder is a poor conductor. I find very high eutectic solder to be best.
When done like this, soldering is way better than screws and ensures that the join is held well and sealed, so that joint oxidation (etc) does not occur. Screws can damage the wire through pressure and the screwing action and does not prevent joint oxidation. Joint oxidation can also occur with crimping. Soldering, though, is usually a bit slower but if done well, very effective.
I've tried a couple of eutectic types, but the WBT seems to flow much nicer throughout the joint and leaves a smooth finish by comparison
Don't know if the sound is impacted when used on speaker cables - I've never tried an A/B comparison.
But I did do an A/B on KLEI RCA plugs on my IC's from the phono stage and the WBT was a little faster in dynamic performance, so I've always used it from that point on.
I will report back after 200 hours. I am not sure I agree with your assessment of solder adding benifits that outweigh the proposed effect of micro arching at these low voltage signal levels. My ears and experience suggest otherwise. I am open minded however and perhaps in this instance the resulting sound is not compromised.
No need to thicken the material at all. Leave it as is and drill a hole for a set screw that is mounted in the outer plastic case. (Perhaps two) The screw forces the wire up against the wall of the material. Nice direct connection with no solder. The outer case will need development and it will cost more. It should be made to support the wall of the connector material.
@grannyring - would you be so kind as to report back after 200 hours or so - I’m still finding subtle improvements as time goes by - Mine have well over 300 hours now.
I’ve found that the best connection for spades is crimp and then solder because the crimp forms a mechanical joint first and then the solder fills in small spaces with a much smaller amount of solder, which prevents micro arching.
Unfortunately, plugs such as these, along with RCA jacks can only be soldered for an effective joint.
The design point for all KLEI connectors is to use just the right amount of the right type of conductive material in order to optimize the movement of electrons - I don’t understand it fully, but their web site has a few articles.
Adding more material for a screw type of design could possibly diminish the effectiveness of the plug making it no better than the Radio Shack variant and make it more expensive.
So what next - will you try their RCA’s perhaps? - they are excellent also :-)
Yes burn in is required for best sound. It took about 100 hours or so before they totally smoothed out and let the full, natural beauty of my cable come through. I’d say that both the body and smoothness of the mids and highs improved over the 100 hours.
Since these are soldered both the connector and solder joints need run in time. I do wish these were solderless. The designer would do well to offer a set screw type of design for best sound IMHO. Solder has a sound and it does not conduct as well as both the wire or connector it joins together. This could be done pretty simply.
They are nice sounding connectors and I like the overall design and quality very much.
Ok, these are now pretty much broken in. Anyone want to buy 16 of these connectors? Not! Ha!
They have settled down and did take the better part of 100 hours. Still a smidgin more brilliance in the upper mids and highs compared to my bare wire, but now delivered in a smooth and musical manner. They are very smooth and resolving while maintaining the all important musicality. Nice find and thanks to the OP and LAK for making us aware!
Bill, as long as its something I can put (attach) to my cable cooker I'd be happy to do it for you. All I'd ask is for you to pick up the shipping cost both ways.
grannyring, I was able to put my Duelund speaker cables terminated with the KLE Bananas on my cable cooker so I did not experience unpleasant listening.
Living Voice OBX RW speakers, , Lyngdorf 2170 with many mods/upgrades and killer digital front end. BPT & CPT Power conditioning, dedicated 20amp lines etc....
@grannyring - What components/speakers are you using for your audition ?
Just looked at my review - Here's a clip after I completed the 120 hours burn-in...
Jethro Tull’s - Songs From The Wood and The Steeleye Span Story had always sounded quite shrill, so I was expecting an even brighter performance. However, the harshness of both of these albums seemed to be tamed and the music had much more body and depth without sacrificing the very crisp dynamics.
So hang in there - only another 96 hours to go :-)
Funny that folks are asking about cryogenic treatment. I have not done any a/b testing as yet. However, on my current speaker project I am going to send out all my parts out for cryo treatment based on the overwhelming positive comments from folks who have tested.
After 24 hours I still find I lost a bit of the weight and resonate beauty/ tone of my music collection. These connectors, as of 24 hours, highlight the upper mids and highs in much the same manner a yellow highlighter makes words and phrases jump out on paper. I prefer the words not jump out at me, but rather allow me to enjoy the text on my own terms if you will. The bare wire has all the words (details) but they are not highlighted in the manner the banana connectors seem to convey.
Remember this is in comparison to direct, bare wire connection and not vs. other connectors.
Only 24 hours thus far and perhaps things will change. If not, I will have 16 of these to sell 😢
@grannyring - most plugs and cables from KLEI tend to go through a harsh spell and then settle down after around 20-30 hours.
They continue to get better as you approach the 120 mark.
They are very detailed, which some people may not like, but I’ve come to appreciate the additional details, especially when listening to live performance..
Pipe organ music is one area their improved details excel.
Because they convey to every facet of the waveform, I find they produce more reality from instruments and the musicians, which are also more precisely placed within the image
Looking forward to hearing more about these Bananas on the Duelund wire.
I have 8 of these installed now. I like the design. Very simple and easy to use and solder. In terms of sound, this is just my initial impression as I only have some 6 hours on them. They have impacted the natural warmth the Duelund wire has by brightening things up a tad. Sharper leading edges and more brilliance. This however is not a good thing for me. I miss the natural warmth and ease. I hope this comes with time. I will report back after some 50 hours.
I hate to judge too quickly but it appears you’re not the only one who prefers cryo’d cables to uncryo’d cables since almost all high end cable manufacturers send them out already cryo’d. Almost everything sounds better cryo’d. In fact, I can’t think of anything that doesn’t. Hope that’s not too controversial.
I've had the opportunity to compare non-cryoed to cryoed pair of speaker cables, a few power cables, and several AC outlets in 2001-2002. I preferred the sound of the cryoed because I believe I heard more details and slightly deeper bass, and wider and deeper soundstage. The downside is a much, much longer time for the break-in to take place. Sometimes the break-in might take so long that the listener might lose patience and write the product off as subpar. I also remember that I didn't care for the sound of anything gold that was cryoed. With that said, long ago I decided to purchase a good cable cooker.
Sound quality is so very subjective and terms like closed in and dark are relative. It may be we like entirely different sound signatures. I suspect this is in part true.
Yep - I believe that may be the case - different strokes for different folks (but I still might give the Duelund a whirl)
RE: Cryo treating...
Have you ever compared Cryo treated vs. non-cryo’d wire or components ?
I’ve never had the opportunity to perform this comparison, since it is difficult to find a supplier with the identical products with/without treatment
So I am unable to form any opinion as to any benefit Cryo-treating "might" provide
I have used many cryo’d parts & wire, but they were not selected in preference to items not applying this process - they just came like that
For me, the jury is still out.
Since you appear to be "into" DIY, if you could share any experience you have had WRT cryo treating it would be appreciated.
AND - If anyone else has done this comparison please share your findings also.
Yes I have tried the Belden wire, but not the braiding you mention. Also, I have never liked the sound of silver over copper cable. I have always found it to be a tad edgy and a tad lean in the past. I am open minded enough to realize there may be one I like however. I actually replaced all the mill spec wire in a set of Tekton Double Impact speakers with the Duelund wire and the improvement was substantial. Looks to be the very same wire as shown in your link.
Sound quality is so very subjective and terms like closed in and dark are relative. It may be we like entirely different sound signatures. I suspect this is in part true.
If you did try it - did you use it in a Helix geometry cable?
I must admit I do not find it "closed in" and "dark sounding" at all - extremely spacious with a huge image and pinpoint placement of musicians.
Also, the impact of the dielectric tends to be reduced when employing a helix geometry because the conductors are almost at right angles with each other, resulting in very little surface area contact - hence low capacitance and low inductance
Night and day difference between Duelund and Belden sound. Don’t let your preconceived notions of tinned wire cloud or block an open minded hearing of this great wire. I had the same conventional knowledge and thinking. This wire has lots of folks selling off high dollar cables made of silver and copper. I am just one of them. Belden is closed in and dark sounding compared to Duelund. Two very different sonic signatures and designs actually.
Supra also makes tinned wire, but it also has a different sonic signature from Duelund. You have to consider the type of copper used, tinning process employed, and the all important dialectric. Duelund uses natural cotton fibers impregnated in oil and that certainly impacts the resulting sound also. Tinning is but one attribute in the total recipe.
Easily the best value in cable I have ever experienced and I have owned and tried MANY.
Give it 150 hours of burn in and smile big when you sell your $3000 cables.
The cables resolve to a very high degree and provide exceptional dynamic performance, with a deep controlled bass, exceptional clarity and a spacious 3D image.
However, most of their superb abilities is actually due to the Helix geometry.
Adopting a more conventional geometry where signal and neutral conductors run side by side will probably not yield close to the same results.
I did look at Duelund wire, but the fact it is "tinned", which is not as conductive as silver plate, put me off
The Beldon Mil Spec 16 AWG Silver Plated Copper wire is a little more economical than the tinned Duelund and even more economical than the Silver plated Duelund version.
Note: I have found through a lot of experimentation... - that the neutral can be constructed from a little lower quality conductor
without degrading performance. - PROVIDED: it is at least twice the gauge of the signal conductor
But again, that is using the Helix geometry - I cannot comment on how that design approach might impact conventional geometries, but I have read that it will provide some noticeable improvements.
Personally - I don’t think there is much difference between the Beldon or the Duelund conductors from a sound quality perspective. Both will provide very good sound quality
Whitestix, I agree with you regarding the Duelund and Western Electric wire. Grannyring originally made the suggestion to me and I'm happy. Duelund tinned - copper in cotton oil impregnated wire. 16 gauge going to my top speaker terminals and 12 gauge going to my lower speaker terminals. Terminated with the KLE Bananas. Also a pair of speaker cables made with the Heavy Duty Western Electric 10 gauge wire.
A pal of mine who makes IC's, as well as Don Sachs, the guy who made my preamp, both are big fans of Dueland wire. Don now uses it for the internal wiring in his preamp and rewired his speakers with Dueland wire, a definite improvement from his Supra Ply 3.4 wire he previously used. Both cables are similar in metal construction, but Don clearly prefers the Dueland wire. I use vintage WE 16 ga. wire for my bedroom system, which is quite similar in all aspect of construction to the Dueland wire, and it is betters far more expensive speaker cables I have used in the past. It has a "organic" sound -- clean and clear, such as KLE connectors evidently have.
With KLE connectors, Dueland wiring may be a very economical upgrade for ones' system, for jumpers, IC's or speakers wire.
The banana plugs. I am going to add them to the wiring harness going from the outboard crossovers to my Living Voice speakers. I use a Duelund bare wire right now.
The OP said nothing about "value." He simply identified a product he thought would probably "
live up to their (i.e., KLE's) stellar reputation" although he has not tried them.
If you want the lowest price option and the best sonic result (i.e., the best value), simply remove your binding posts (most dual sets of posts are attached to a plate of some sort so remove the entire plate), and then either, 1. Solder (or connect with ring terminals) all of the positive internal hook up wires to ONE of the positive binding posts and all of the negative internal hook-up wires to the corresponding negative post so you can then use only one set of binding posts with your single wire cables, or 2. Solder (or connect with ring terminals) two very short pieces of high quality wire between the two binding posts, positive to positive and negative to negative, which leaves both sets of binding posts "hot" while negating the need for jumpers
A third option is as grannyring suggests, to solder or crimp your speaker cables directly to the internal hook-up wires, thereby bypassing any binding posts.
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