Licoricepizza, before starting upon your task you should do a quick estimate of how many years it will take you to complete it. Let's say it takes you 5 years to finish. Do you think Korg will still be making or supporting a DSD recorder five years from now? Will there be DSD decoders five years from now? My point is that archiving vinyl is a very time consuming task and you should be wary about boxing yourself into dedicated hardware/software formats.
Benchmark, Metric Halo and Apogee all make PCM based A/D converters with either USB or Firewire interfaces built in for computer connectivity. Lynx makes a number of PCI or PCe cards for connecting an outboard A/D or D/A to a computer. |
Believe me, I have thought about how long this will take me. I dread it. The only upside that I see is listening to ton of good vinyl that I haven't heard in a while.
Right now, all of my LPs are sitting in custom-made shelves. The last time I moved, I had 29 boxes of LPs that were moved with me. What a pain. All that said, I would rather listen to a record than anything else. There is no comparison.
The technology seems to keep evolving, so I certainly don't want to jump on the digital bandwagon, only to find that I can't listen to my music anymore. Computers are going from PCI to PCI-E, MP3 has evolved into M4A, etc. It goes on, and on.
It took years to build a good stereo, and more years (a lifetime) to collect all those records. I certainly don't want to part with them lightly. |
Onhwy61 is correct, there are numerous ways to get the data onto your PC or your Mac and most will be enjoyable. We should however all check back in 5 years and I believe most manufacturers still in business will have adopted, embraced and furthered the DSD format. The beauty of recording in DSD is that you are not limited to DSD or PCM. You could archive in 5.6mhz DSD (double the resolution of SACD) and output to any PCM format you choose, optimizing playback through your current digital player of choice. Most of the solutions out there as mentioned in Onhwy61's post require you to make a sample rate commitment up front be it 24/96, 16/44.1 or 24/192. There simply isn't a more affordable way to archive at the highest quality available.
As far as Korg and whether they will be making DSD recorders 5 years from now.....well, they have been in business since 1963, have been making DSD recorders since 2006 and when you look at what about $1500 gets you, it is really an amazing bargain. I have no affiliation to Korg other than as a consumer but as a method to record your music from an analog signal digitally, there is simply no better $1500 solution available. I am however always open to new ideas and equipment. Something may come out next week that addresses everything for less and since I am always glad to try something new. I would urge you to call your local Korg dealer and see if they have a MR2000 in stock available for demo to try it. Good luck all. |
The Korg is a very impressive piece of technology, but I would caution against using it as a DSD recorder for long-term, archival, purposes. The Korg relies upon dedicated software for sample rate/format conversion. The Korg can operate as a fully functional, highly competent archival recorder as long as the company supports this software. The question is whether Korg will continue to support updates for the software over time as new CPUs and system software becomes available? Over a five year time span I don't think anybody knows the answer. You might actually be better off using the Korg as a high bit/sample rate recorder.
I'm using a five year horizon because that's what it would take to digitize 5,000 albums if you were extremely diligent. |
Believe me, I have thought about how long this will take me. I dread it. ...All that said, I would rather listen to a record than anything else. There is no comparison. Licorice, if those quotes are how you really feel, why would you want to do something you dread doing in order to listen to a format you don't like rather than the format you like more than anything else? |
I'm hoping to only archive the LPs I don't already have digitally, all the bootlegs, rare gems, etc. Otherwise I'd be well North of 60 before I'm done. |
I definitely prefer vinyl, I just hate having to move the entire collection when we move into a different house. I've moved the whole analog empire twice now. I'm sure there will be more to follow. |
I must be deaf or I have the best vinyl to PC. I'm listening to digital vinyl that I just down loaded and I can't tell the difference. I don't imagine Ghasley knows it, but that box of his is made up of transistors, diodes, and capacitors; and the bottom line is which box has the best transistors, diodes, and capacitors; not the name on the box. If his box was so good, he wouldn't have to use me for a "straw dog" in order to sell it. |
Orpheus, REALLY? REALLY!?!?
Licorice and others who may be interested, simply check with your local pro audio dealer and see if you can demo one and see for yourself. Demoing is the only way and listen in your system. Archiving vinyl does take time so starting the process with a satisfactory recording chain is paramount. I happen to find it enjoyable to record an album a few times a week.
Orpheus has discovered a way to record his vinyl in the following manner, as I understand it:
His turntable connected to his phono stage, then connected to his DAK box (ca $70), then connected to his Soundblaster pc soundcard (ca $100~) recorded real time to his pc hard drive. He plays back through his Music Streamer dac (ca $150). He doesn't mention his associated equipment or cabling, all of which I am sure is excellent, but it would be helpful if it was listed.
I have listed 1 way to record your vinyl, there are others. Any of them are better than nothing but our time is pretty valuable so I was merely looking for a manner that replicated as closely as I could the nuances and special sound qualities that vinyl brings to the table. The Korg is an easy method. Plug it in, connect some interconnects, cue the vinyl, press record. Once you have recorded to the Korg, move the files to your PC hard drive, convert to the sample rate(s) of your choosing from your DSD master and you are good to go.
Another way that is probably better in many areas is to buy a Mac, buy Pure Vinyl, buy a microphone pre amp, buy an analog to digital coverter and record directly from your turntable, bypassing the RIAA equalizer that is built in to your phono stage. The pure vinyl software will accept sample rates up to 24/192 and then the Pure Vinyl software can manipulate the data, automatically records/stops with the needle drop and has sophisticated tick/pop removal algorithms to minimize those artifacts. Pure Vinyl has all of the RIAA eq curves built in and you can choose from the many variations introduced over the past 60 or so years to see which one is best for the particular recording. I chose the Korg because it was inexpensive in audiophle terms and uncomplicated.
I'm not trying to sell anything to anyone as Orpheus implies nor am I trying to convince anyone this is the best way....I am however saying this is the best inexpensive way to record your vinyl at the highest digital resolution currently available, 5.6 mhz DSD. I just wish Orpheus would list his system and the sample rates/recording format so you can evaluate the reproduction chain.
For the record again (I've listed this is another thread, but for context) my current main system is as follows:
Rega P5/Exact 2/TTPSU
VAC Sigma 160i (utilizing inboard phono stage, NOS 12AX7 Mullards)
Playback Designs MPD-3 DAC
KORG MR2000S Digital DSD recorder
Wilson Audio Duettes
Running Springs Jaco power conditioner
Cardas Clear Light speaker cables and interconnects throughout
Cardas Clear M power cables
Locus Design Polestar USB cable to DAC |
Orpheus just wishes you leave Orpheus out all together. |
"Orpheus just wishes you leave Orpheus out all together."
Agreed, i'm not trying to flame you, i just saw where you mentioned me again in your post and stated it was either you can't hear or you have the best vinyl to digital......i'll leave that to others to decide which is which.
I do agree with you, parts quality is important....almost as important as the designers implementation of same. I'm glad you are digging your music.
We can call a truce if you like, consider this an olive branch! Now, back to the purpose of this forum which is to learn from one another and avoid the pitfalls that populate this hobby. |
Well, I received an nice care package in the mail from fellow Audiogon list member Ghasely. It was pair of CDs made on the Korg using DSD. The sample rate was set for my current sound card, which is a paltry 16/44.1. The CDs still sound great. Better still, it's music I like, but don't already own. Perfect sound forever? I don't think so, but it does sound way better than I would have imagined, and any limitation is on my end.
To sum up, I would be more than happy using a Korg unit. It's definitely something I oould not only live with owning, bt be proud of, too. |
Licoricepizza, I'm glad you are enjoying the music and get an idea of what a recording from the Korg sounds like in 16/44.1 redbook resolution. good luck with your archiving journey....like all nice trips, it's no fun until you start!
Peace, GH |
Licorice, for the record: none of my post's indicated that I recommended anything that I used to download vinyl. Archive is too sophisticated a word to describe what I've done.
Now I'm going to describe what I will do in order to archive my vinyl. The Benchmark ADC1 USB A-to-D converter with USB is what I'll use. Benchmark's UltraLock clock system insures the audio will never get contaminated with jitter-induced artifacts from a poor-quality computer based clock. This unit is capable of streaming at rates up to 96KHZ/24 bit without installing any drivers.
I will also purchase a reference quality cartridge with the intention of selling it back after I've finished archiving my vinyl. The best rig will insure the best sound I've ever heard.
This is a very important thread and ALL of the options available should be posted for others who want to archive their vinyl.
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Hey guys:
I did not have much time, so only able to generally scan the mails above, but really enjoyed the thread!! I also have a few thousand LPs and decided I wanted to archive them since I have very little time to play vinyl with a house full of kids. After spending some time on computer audiophile I also purchased the Benchmark ADC1 A to D converter and am using Audacity as the recording software (at the recommendation of Benchmark, who was very helpful).
I have learned a few things, and have a couple of questions, so post them here just in case they are helpful:
1. Although I use a PC running Vista, Benchmark recommends Macs since they claim that Windows 7 has a non-defeatable volume control that eats bits. I have no comment on that one.
2. I have queried an audio engineer friend who has recommended a few other software programs (Reaper was high on his list). I have not tried them but am not convinced they would make any sound difference. Any experience there?
3. I am trying a couple different USB cables (the forums are full of comments but would like to judge for myself). Any experience or recommendation?
4. Right now my main question is whether I should run from the phono preamp into my stereo preamp then into the Benchmark, or directly to the Benchmark from the phono preamp? The former allows me to monitor the process on my main system, but the latter should theoretically sound better since it bypasses one device.
For what it is worth I recall that one of the more experienced fellows over at Computer Audiophile recommended exporting to flac at 24/96, so that is what I am doing. Relatively painless (but a bit time consuming).
Result: After much learning and experimenting I finished my first LP. I must admit I was very, very pleased with the result (playing through J River Media Center). I chose not to use any pop removal programs, and ended up not even deleting the slight noise in the silence between tunes (now tracks). It was only slight to begin with and reminded me that it was analogue vinyl after all.
For the completists, since it seems to be relevant to the posts above, my system is an Oracle Delphi V TT, Basis Vector TA, Benz Ruby 3 cart, Cary phono pre through Cary SLP88 pre into an HP with Vista laptop, BAT amp and Wilson Sophia speakers.
Just thought you might be interested in the experience of another would-be archivist, just starting the journey. Thanks for the thread! |
Seldenr, after extensive critical listening to the playlist of my vinyl, I've come to the conclusion that any shortcomings are in the original analog domain.
Although I have a large vinyl collection which was the result of natural accumulation before CD, I wasn't into high end audio. Once I got into high end, my analog lagged behind. I've discovered that with my humble A to D conversion rig, the shortcomings are in the analog domain as opposed to the digital. You won't have that problem.
In regard to the "pop removal", mine works very well; but I only use it on records that need it. I would think going directly into the Benchmark will yield the best results. I'm using Windows 7, if non-defeatable volume control is eating bits, it hasn't eaten so many that I can tell the difference.
Your post was highly beneficial, and I'm sure you will get the best results.
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Correction on my last post. It won't make any difference whether you run it "line in, line out" on your pre, or direct to the Benchmark. The ability to monitor is a good thing. |
Read Michael Fremer's review of Pure Vinyl. Forget everything else. It handles RIAA digitally. |
