Was the Halycronics worth the (high) price of admission ?
Don't you think that spending that money on other components could be more beneficial (you could buy a better pre, amp, speakers etc.) ? |
Guess my last post was denied by Audigon, I'll try and rephrase. First I thanked David for his post and do appreciate that not everyone can afford, or think a $5000 isolation device is worth the funds. We do make the passive version at $1850 which is sonically identical to the active version except without the compressor. The active is more convenient and that's it. Once someone hears what the VP actually does they usually buy a 2nd or 3rd unit, we actually have a customer who now owns 13 units in one system! A world record I would think. Our US government just purchased another 8 active units. (Thank you Uncle Sam). So I do respect and understand these expensive devices are not for everyone, neither is the $8000 unit Norm has talked about, one that we also sell but even I don't think it's worth the extra $$$ over the standard VP.
A very Happy and SOUND New Year to all.
Steve
SOS |
Elberoth2, I cannot really answer your question about whether it is worth the price of admission nor that about whether investment in other components would be more worthwhile. In my experience the answer for me was regretably, yes. I suspect that it would take a demonstration in your home to decide. It certainly was not my intent to put so much money into isolation. I do not know whether SOS has demonstrated their active unit as conpared with the pump up or compressor versions of the Vibraplane, but clearly that would be what would be needed to make a choice. Although I once owned the pump up Vibraplane and have heard the compressor version, I never heard the other unit he speaks of.
Again, I meant only to suggest that isolation and firm grounding are not the only choices. |
Hi Norm, No we have not demonstrated or even marketed the active unit. At it's price we feel there is not a large market and yes, it is better than the Vibraplane, no questions asked, but at $1850 vs. $7500 we would hope.
There are many of these "Active" isolation devices out there, all come from the same source. Look at Herzan (http://www.herzan.com/ts.html) or do a search for TSI in Germany. HWL Scientific in germany is another source. We all source from the same manufacturer all are just rebranded. The "original" Vibraplane was designed and is manufacturered in the good old US of A. Hope this helps.
Steve
SOS
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Steve, not that I really care, but it is not true that Herzan makes the Halcyonic units and rebrands them. |
From hwl SCIENTIFIC INSTRUMENTS GmbH web site:
1987 John Sandercock founded JRS Scientific Instruments to develop active isolation systems for the growing market
1991 Introduction of the modular system MOD-2
1995 Introduction of a self-contained unit MOD-1
1996 Worldwide distribution by efforts of Herzan and Halcyonics. The cooperation between JRS and Halcyonics did not developed as intended and ended finally in 2002
2002 Halcyonics bought the non-exclusive rights to the MOD-1 and MOD-2 technology from JRS.
It seems that Halcyonics product is indeed not the same. |
You're right Norm, it doesn't make any difference. I was just passing on info I was given from one of the 12 full time engineers we have on staff. I have no way of confirming this, but as you say it doesn't make any difference. |
Geoffkait
Could you explain your isolation device.
Could you explain the importance of isolating seismic type oscilations.
Thanks |
Seurat - Machina Dynamica (my company) currently makes 3 isolation devices, the most complex of which is Nimbus Sub-Hertz Platform, a pneumatic (air spring) type device. The Promethean and Nirvana are mechanical spring type devices. Nimbus is a floorstanding 28" tall stand with max load of about 40 lb.
The primary objective of all 3 of these devices is to attenuate seismic vibration, which we feel is the main culprit (as opposed to airborne vibration or induced vibration) that degrades the sound. I should mention all 3 of our iso stands address airborne and induced vibration as well as sesimic.
Nimbus is a *single* air spring design that employs (25 lb) ballast located well below the air spring, as well as special lateral support (steel spring) system, both of which required to build up lateral support for the otherwise floppy airspring. The advantages of a single air spring are: it allows use of *near perfect geometry* air spring, provides extremely low spring rate for very low resonant freq. under load and avoids (unwanted) interactions among multiple bladders/air springs.
Nimbus also employs a very large auxiliary air reservoir that is fitted to the Firestone air spring. This aux air reservoir considerably reduces the effective spring rate of the air spring (thus the system resonant freq).
The use of a single air spring and the unique pendulum (unipivot) design of Nimbus allows isolation in all 6 directions of motion. Since Earth's crust (continuous) motion produces seismic waves ("shaking out a carpet" analogy), isolation of the audio component in the 3 rotational directions, in additional to vertical direction and all horizontal directions, is quite important, relatively speaking. The (extremely strong) sesimic waves force the building to move up and down and back and forth, as well as force it to rotate. The waves are coming from many directions, so the actual dynamics of the situation is *very* complex.
Sesimic vibration has most of its energy around 0 - 3 Hz. Since the peak seismic energy is extremely low in frequency, resonant freq of the isolating device must be extremely low -- the lower the better.
Nimbus achieves 0.5 Hz resonant freq. in 2 rotational directions, about 1 Hz in lateral plane and about 2 Hz in vertical direction, slightly higher in third rotational direction.
We use selective frequency damping of the top plate to remove the last remnants of induced or airborne vibration, and any sesimic vibration that might have made it up thru the iso system.
Our latest iso gadget, Nirvana Base, employs alternating heavy masses and special free-standing helical springs to achieve extremely low isolating system resonant freqs on the order of 1 Hz or below in nearly all directions.
Lastly, Promethean is a simplied version of Nirvana Base and is recommended where heavy loads or space limitations are indicated.
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Very interesting. What are Sesimic vibrations? |
Has anyone here tried these Magnetic Levitators from GR-Research http://www.gr-research.com/levitator.htm |
Guidocorona - seismic vibrations are the energetic waves that travel along the surface of the Earth that are produced by movement of the Earth's crust, especially along fault lines -- not only earthquakes, but less intense, continuous motion ("microseismic" activity). These seismic waves have transverse, perpendicular and rotational components (forces) capable of travelling long distances with great rapidity.
The seismic wave acts on a building much like a wave on the ocean passing under a boat -- when the wave passes under it, it forces the boat to move up and down, also pushes the boat forward and back and rocks it to and fro.
For convenience, we often include under the heading "seismic vibration" other sources of low-frequency vibration: automobiles, trucks and buses; trains and subways; the effect if tides around coastal areas, the effect of wind on high rise buildings (sway), even low frequency vibration produced by large applicances in the building -- large fans, A/C, etc. |
Considering that seismic vibrations have long wavelength, several kilometers (they can reach hundreds of kilometers), two adjacent points, like the feet of the rack, vibrate with coherently (with the same phase). The rack only suffers from a vertical displacement movement, the wave never gets inside of the rack in order to excite it's modes of vibration. The amplitude of these waves are so small, we are not talking about a earthquake, that are neglectable for a audio rack. The problems involving the interaction of a seismic wave and a rack are several orders of magnitude smaller than the traffic induced noise or children playing through home. I dont see how this is the biggest problem to deal with. Please explain.
One can control the ressonance frequency trough mass, stiffnes or damping. You manage this low ressonant frequancy, only by using springs?
Low ressonant frequency is not the only usefull parameter, what is the settling time of your rack?
Energy spectrum is also usefull.
You seem to use a pendulum system that I have allready seen in some very tall building projects, to minimize oscilations cause by enviromental phenomena, such as wind driving forces. I've also seen it in a prroject to isolate an interforemeter in a gravitacional wave experiment facility.
IMHO, I think that a rack should adress other more important issues, like struture borne sound (generated inside and outside of the rack) or air borne sound, than seismic wave problems. |
Geoffkait, I just read this thread, and frankly am not sure if I should laugh, cry or yell. What is your program??? Machina dynamica Brilliant Pebbles - $258.00, Machina dynamica Clever Lil Clock - $199.00. Are you seriously expecting anyone to believe in the Machina dynamica Nimbus isolation table - $800.00. It is people like you who sell %$#@ for inflated prices that have made the legitimate science based products fall into scrutiny. Beyond that, you have the gall to post on a thread like this to promote yourself. I assume your stomach rubs on the ground as you walk, for I can not think of a lower form of life. I am happy to see no one has fallen for your current auctions, perhaps after a year or so you will crawl back into your hole.
Now I understand you are just following the lead of Sksos, that is another story all together. Luckily I have not followed either of your "scientific" solutions...
jd |
Thank you GeoffKait, I am glad 'sesimic' is but an unofficial variant of good old-fashioned 'seismic'. I was afraid I was confronting yet a new novel Age Physics other-dimensional phenomenon measurable only through Radionics-based apparati. Even in their classic spelling, I am not quite sure I am terribly concerned about vibrations induced by tectonic movements in the Mantle, Crust, subduction faults or otherwise. If they are strong enough to be felt by me, bloating in the midbass will be the very least of my concerns. And if my house were in an area prone to anything more than sporadically occurring microquakes. . . it would be high time to move elsewhere, before anything larger than 'micro' hits that idyllic neighbourhood. On the other hand, vibrations directly or indirectly induced by human presence and transaction -- or by weather -- constitute more realistic targets for musical concern and eventual absorption. |
Guidocorona - Ya got me! I thought you were the one that couldn't spell, but it was I.... Good one!
Jadem6 - Excellent reaction! - the feeling is quite mutual, btw. You must not get out much...
Seurat - of course, one might ask why the gravitational wave experiment doesn't use a rack instead of a pendulum to isolate the interferometer... :-) |
Jadem6: I cannot speak from experience regarding the Brilliant Pebbles and Clever Lil Clock, but I do have experience with Geoff's Nimbus Stand. I used it at a show about four or five years ago and think very highly of it. It has real science behind it and is very obvious from first use. Geoff is a very smart man who is also quite the gentleman. I understand your questioning the products, but I can tell you that Geoff does deserve respect for the accomplishments I am aware of.
Question him offline, I am sure you will be impressed. |
I've given credit to things like upgraded power cords, dedicated lines, room tuning and even aftermarket fuses for making improvements to the sound of my system.
I've used modded Target type stands and all manor of sismic sinks, Roller blocks, BDR,and wooden chopping blocks and felt pretty good about all of my effforts.
What I've never been conviced of is that any upscale audio rack would make a difference to what I cobbled together.
I mean all the other stuff I agonize over really counts, the stand is just a stand right?
Well I should have known better, me the tweekster,should have known that no stone should be left unturned in the pursuit of great sound.
So it is with grat pleasure that I announce that my most recently purchased audio toy is a Grand Prix Audio LeMans rack.
And to say that this one item alone surpasses all my expectations is not saying enough about the improvemnt this stand has made in the sound of the music coming from all my other toys.
Can a better snad box improve the toys that are in it?
Maybe not, but this audio stand certainly improves the toys placed on it.
One point to make,because I am a tweester I substituted the slim Grand Prix spikes for 3 fatter brass ones from my Ref 3A Grand veens(which use BDR cones -ah the tweekster strikes again)and the bass impact and fullness of the music went up several notches.
I would expect the delite people get from using the GP Apex footers is because the stock slim GP spikes are holding back what this rack can do.
I can honestly say that with the GV spikes on the GP stand,the whole GD sytem has improved by leaps and bounds.
The best audio purchase I've ever made. |
SYMPOSIUM Using Stealth Amp stand Roller blocks Stealth stands under my Audience 6ts and 6tGp upgrade MUCH better with SYMPOSIUM. |
In my opinion, no isolation foot or platform even comes close to what the StillPoints Ultra Stainless Steel feet do for isolation. I don't sell them nor have any involvement with this company and they are not cheap, but everyone I know who have tried them agree with me that they are revolutionary. |
