BEST HARMLESS/SIGNATURELESS SPEAKERS CAPACITORS.
@rauliruegas I’ll refer you to Ralph’s (@atmasphere) last post (first on page 3) in our other capacitor thread for some relevant discussion regarding parallel caps of different values... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/preamp-output-capacitor-mundorf-supreme-vs-supreme-silver-oil... |
Dear @grannyring @cal3713 and friends : Yesterday I changed the stand alone bnd-pass and tweeter crossovers by two caps in parallel at each position where all caps have the same voltage spec. After half a hour of free play the caps already settle down due that all are used caps: two came from the original input coupling in my Levinson's and the other 6 came from a Classé Audio DR3-VHC that I owned. Question: makes sense to any of you that one improvement been that noise floor goes down? because after runned twice by evaluation proccess this was the first improvement I listened and listen. Second was that focus is dead dead centered as if was deeply underground ( better than beefore. ), then I noted that ( as in live music events at near field position. ) I almost can determine the distance/position of the different instruments in the stage in a solid and vivid manner. In complex scores as the Battle track in the Gladiator soundtrack exist better separation in between the different instrument sounds, same happens too with the Telarc 1812 recording. I can identify better the individual sound of each insterument and at the same time with high coherence in between. I did not what to expect for the parallel caps changes so these kind of improvements are welcomed. I have to say that the differences for the better is " night and day " but my evaluation proccess and system resolution permit me to be aware of those little and sometime tiny level chamnges. I still waiting for the caps for the bi-amp high pass filter. R. |
Dear @cal3713 @grannyring friends : I just received the two Wima FKP1 0.033UF FOR i CAN MAKE THE CHANGE INSTEAD THE V-CAPS tEFLON cU THAT ACTUALLY ARE IN MYLlEVINSON'S INPUT HIGH-PASS FILTERS. Really small devices, as the third or fourth part of one single Teflon Cu. So and due that Wima caps has radial pins connectors I have to solder in the circuit boards using additional wires, I will use pure silver teflon isulation by KK. I bougth the model FKP1 instead the MKP10 because Wima states in his site: "" As regards pulse loading capability, WIMA FKP 1 represents the high-end of capacitor technology. """ and that means a top the MKP10. We will see what happens when I test it this week. I have not big expectations with the Wima in this application because the V-cap´s Teflon Cu are just first rate ones. R. |
Dear friends: As I said before I had not high expectations changing the Wima FKP-1 instead the V-caps Teflon Cu at the input of my Levinson’s amplifiers. I have to say that even that I bougth the 10% tolerance model in Wima ( because the 5% was out of stock. ) the capacitance was dead rigth: 0.033 uf with no deviation, in this regards better than the V-caps accuracy. I had not big expectations if we think that the price of the Teflon Cu is 100.00 each one against 4.00 for the each Wima ! ! and that before this change I made it changes with Wima caps in the speaker crossover mid-range/band-pass/tweeter filters and before these speaker changes my system performed with really good quality performance level and high resolution where the Wima improved by a wide margin that quality performance levels and resolution. Now, what is happening after I take out the V-caps and solder the FKP-1 in the Levinson’s?: To say that the FKP-1 outperformed the Tweflon Cu could be a misunderstood because it did not outperformed but just " disappeared/burned " it so easy that it’s hard ( inclusive to me that I was in love with the V-caps. ) not only to believe it but to imagine it but it’s: beats totally the Teflon Cu ! ! ! ? ? !!!! We have to think that through that input 0.033uf caps goes all the frequency range from around 60hz-80hz, that’s that affects the whole room/system performance levels. Due to that it’s a critical change. First detected improvement was and is in the mid-bass where overhang or bloated performance gone and now the mid-bass has the tigthness as in live MUSIC ( overall IMD improved/goes lower. ) this made it that the over tones been improved too and that mid-range frequency recieved benefits about as the HF range too. Noise floor continued going lower and lower and the instruments notes are purer than ever. I don’t know how but in each frequiency range gone all " veils " and rigth now I have only MUSIC with out any sign of distracting " artifacts/colorations/distortions " and the like. It’s severely addictive and obviously a way new experiences for me and not only in my system but in any room/systems I listened trhough 40+ years. I have no words to explain it because all the audiophile top adjectives has no " place " here because maybe you can’t understand it till you could listen for first time in your audio life that kind of system audio experiences. If you have enough near field live MUSIC experiences what I can tell you is that I never before had that live MUSIC experiences. The improvements are not in a few areas but in the whole quality and resolution performance levels. It’s a new audio world that I can asure you you just can’t imagine exist any where in a room/system but exist. This is what I posted after the spekers crossover changes: " In the Lyn Stanley Potions recording and in the very first track in the first minute ( at the end of that first minute. ) that started the track we can listen a very delicated high frequency strokes in a triangle, very delicated and with the Wima exist a very high definition with a precense so vivid ( not organic. ) that you can’t be in other way but impressed for it. """ Rigth now all those were converted in a crystaline and palpable sound. I don’t know if you remember what I posted about the Gladiator recording in reference to the swords sound hitting in between with great clarity and rigth now you even can detect almost the angle in that those swords are hitting together is not outstanding but incredible. Through the listening sessions you can be aware that the Wima caps are or permit that the signal pass through it starigth adding or losting " almost " nothing and I said " almost " because I can’t detect detriment in any way: there is nothing in between the MUSIC and you but MUSIC and only the MUSIC and emotions developed for. That’s what Wima caps are: pure perfect engeneering with a way high quality excecution to the caps design through several years to be the audio industry true standard. I consider useless to talk or compare Wima against Duelund, Juipiter, Mundorf, V-caps and the like: just no contest, no other caps I experienced represent a real challenge for Wima. Wima is in a diferent league, for now. I’m lucky to think " out of the box " that permits me find out the " losted link ". You don’t have to beleive me you only have to change your Duelunds or what ever caps you have for the inexpensive Wima and listen for your self and after that I invite you to share your experiences with us. I think thaT IT’S NOT THAT THE WIMA WORKS FINE WITH MY SPEAKER AND ELECTRONICS I THINK THAT COULD WORKS FINE IN ANY SYSTEM IF WE HAVE THE RIGTH OPEN ATTITUDE AND FORGET TO WHAT WE ARE ACCUSTOM TOO AND REMEMBER HOW THE NEAR FIELD LIVE MUSIC SOUNDS. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Next move: speaker woofer crossovers and FKP-1 instead the MKP-10 in the tweeter and band pass crossover filters. The MKP-10 rigth now are performed excellent but I did not know before that the FKP-1 are for Wima the high end caps for this application. That's why I bougth it for the input Levinson's caps and you already read the success. Btw, I still own several caps: Duelund, Mundorf, Sonicraft, V-caps, Jantzen, etc, etc, I have no regret or any compliant for all the money that I already spend for. This was the learning price and I'm now really happy to do it because it's the only true way: " to know ". Now and after so many years I'm where I want it but that never before knew how to achieve/arrive there/here. R. |
Dear friends: Please read all this page to know whom is Wima to have not a misunderstood as I did it for several years: https://www.wima.de/en/ Here are the two models I'm using. Same, read it individually and look the kind of information that Wima gives us and you can compare it against say Duelund: https://www.wima.de/en/our-product-range/pulse-capacitors/ Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear firends: I was and am thinking why took me so many years to " arrive " with Wima and this is my take about: if it's true that we are MUSIC lovers before anything else in audio it's true too that we are audiophiles members of the " high-end " and as we are not " normal " audio gentlemans we always are looking for best audio devices to enhance our room/system and obviously to enhance our enjoy when listen/reproduce MUSIC at our places, So we are " followers " of news discoveries for some one some where or just through marketing ads and magazines reviews or through audio dealers. Several of tghose " discoveries " are really snake oils but no matters what we have to try it and test if function or not. Normally that snake oil in the high-end comes along high prices because if the price is low no one of us turn over the head to look at. From that kind of audiophile attitude came several audio products/boutique products like: fuses, cables, capacitors, anti-vibrational devices, pens for CDs, to many to name it but you know what I mean. So my self as a follower never turn out my head to Wima caps even that each time I opened or seen inside electronics always found out those " poor " Wima caps. My way of thinking in the past ( till two weeks ago. ) was not only that Wima " can't do it " but I really never think on Wima caps I never think to use it instead the very well regarded ( regarded mainly by audiophiles but for reviewers and distributors. Internet is full of how good and its high differences with no boutique caps and that's why we go for it. I don't say sounds bad, I already said and before my Wima discovery that all those boutique caps are colored ones and from those colorations comes the audiophiles adjectives of its " great " performance quality. ) boutique caps. Wima was just out of my mind till now. There is no return when we use Wima. I don't know if in the future could comes a true challenge for Wima because according my full experiences over 40+ audio years no other caps can " touch " Wima. Yes, I'm happy with and listening more hours daily my system, as I said it's addictive. That's Wima true German engeneering that no one audiophile touted never, at least I did not read it. Enough, I have to come back following enjoying MUSIC because this is all about. R. |
Dear friends : I know that it's intimidating not only to test the Wima cap´s in your systems but even to make or give a positive opinion on the Wima qualñity level performance. Well, I left/stop to listen ( on purpose. ) my system ( anlog/digital/radio. ) for more than 7 days now to " liberate " my brain/ears of the Wima sound and the big surprise that showed and this week end with " fresh ears " started to listen sessions and " see " what happens and what happened was a huge confirmation that the rigth road has a new name WIMA and nothing else. I think that we can like it or not but we can't cover up the sun with one finger, sooner or later will shines. Here some of what I listened and some kind of evaluation about, I decided to go with analog because is more tweak than digital ( I listen a little to digital too. ): Paramita by He Xun Tian ( Wind Music label. ): this is a recording using asian instruments including drums, instruments total unknow for people like me with sounds that we are not accustom too. Percussive instruments ( several ), female voice and chorus and drums: it's an overwhelming experience of joy, very demanding recording for any system and the Wima makes a wonderful job as no any other caps I tested in the past. Talk with audiophile adjectives could be useless. The Köhln Concert Keith Jarrett ( ECM. ): for the first time in my life I listened in a row the 4 concert parts and twice the one part of that concert. It was and is a wonderful life lesson that wake up in any person feelings of any kind you can imagine or dream. The mastery and skills of KJ are overwhelming too and we can attest it over all the concert but especially in the last 7-8 minutes of the part one. M. Davis at the Black Hawk ( CBS. ) : I always like Miles " muted or open " and in this recording with the great Wynton Kelly in the piano obviously Chambers at the bass and J.Cobs at drums alond Hank Mobley sax. With his horn open or muted Miles was just sublime but with the Wima that sublime is " years ahead " anything you can imagine and not only him because in the Hank solos that sax " cry ". Time Out D.Brubeck Quartet ( CBS ): ovbiouslly Desmond at sax and Morello on drums EW in the bass. I know that almost every one already listened take five or blue rondo a la turk tracks and I know for sure that never listened with that kind of vibrancy and new discovery rythm than now. Desmond was in his " glory " in this LP as Brubeck and Morello. Dafos Mikey Hart ( RR. ): a very demanding full recording using a lot of players playing percussive instruments from Brasil, Africa and Indonesia including big big drums. All the side 2 in the LP is demanding in extreme ( especially at over 95db SPL's ) and I know that in several system we can't hear not only the " melody " but to distinguish with precision each single percussive instruments and very dificult not only for the kigh SPL but because are involved by " dozens " different instruments. Wima has that capacity because does not adds nothing and let pass trough every nuances, details and the like. Solti at the Opera ( London: not very good recording but I tested because in the past I listened an undefinied " sound " of deep bass babbling as this was an error during the LP recording but it was not an error and is a true " sound " that comes from the subway where the Royal Opera House is seated. With the Wima that babbling takes definition and is at deep bass. It does not happens in continuity through the recording but by pauses like at the begin Side 2 track 1 first 2 minutes of Semiramide Overture ( Rossini. ). Btw, in some RCA reissues by Chesky recordings I had similar experiences. Montserrat Caballé ( RCA ) : Side 1 Norma by Bellini: Casta Diva when you hear Montserrat here you want cry of joyness and I mean it. Same happens in the Side 2 Lucrecia Borgia by Donizzeti. The Montserrat voice is as it's coming from " heaven " was a give to Montserrat a excelse give and a unique give. Her talent is out of this world and a challenge for sopranos as regarded like Sutherland or La Divina M.Callas. Exist no single instrument so complete, so dramatic, so impressive, so tender, with so huge power, so full of emotions that the Montserrat voice, nothing compares her gives. The Royal Ballet Gala Performances Anserment ( RCA. ): in the Nutcracker Suite the 2 and 4 excerpts ( Dance of the Plum Fairy and Chinise Dance. ) we can note with how much aplomb and delicancy the Celesta and percussive instruments are playing. Not an easy task at the levels that Wima puts it. @grannyring no, I don't will try the ODM new caps due that could be useles due that Wima clearly outperformed the V-caps teflon Cu . Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Gladiator Original Soundtrack film ( ORG.) : the achilles heel analog alternative ( same as in tubes alternative. ) are both frequency extremes,specially bass range. Well, now the analog version of this recording almost even the digital ( CD ) medium at high frequencies and is nearest than ever in its bass range ( mainly deep bass. ) to the CD version and this surprise me an unexpected even that I already knew Wima quality levels. Btw, normally I like the dialogue with other audiophile s but I can see that does not exist interest from your part not to test Wima but even to talk about and this thread, unfortunatelly, converted in a monologue. I know that if the topic is about Wima caps where you have not lately experiences with then you have not nothing to say about and this per sè says that ( as me. ) no one looks back/side to these Wima cheap and humble capacitors because as me we almost all are boutique items followers. I'm extremely happy that I already liberated of that boutique caps stampede where " no one knows why runs but needs to follows running in that direction " because this is what is an stampede and I was there for almost all my audio life in several audiophiles items. Maybe I'm still there with one or two audio items, I have to check and try like with Wima: think again " out of the box ". Anyway, is up to each one of us. R. |
Dear friends: After all those wonderful Wima caps experiences through the crossover changes in my speakers now I’m really exited because tomorrow I will receive the Wima caps for the bass range crossover. We will see the Wima behavior in this range and the overall speakers Wima re-caps quality perforfance levels. Obviously that I will report about. R. |
My experience is polar opposite of yours. Could not remove Wima caps fast enough from all manner of electronics. Strange thing this audio hobby. I find Wima average or middle of the road at best. Go figure. Their lead outs are steel, not even copper. Not good for sound. I am happy you love them! The price is certainly right and that is a good thing. |
Dear @grannyring : I respect a lot your opinion and maybe in the near future you can give a new opportunity to the Wima caps in the speaker crossovers given the rigth time for you can " accustom " to the different Wima sound quality levels. Yes, the lead outs are steel but Wima engeneering is not only one part of the caps but the sum of those parts and the inside Wima caps engeneering is way solid with no snake oils as almost all the boutique caps and we can enjoy Wima at a laughing price. I just received the caps for the bass range. If you remember I need 100uf at each filter crossover and I will do with 4 22uf caps plus a 10uf cap. All MKP-10 model. In the other side which could be an explanation on why through electronic designs you open any item and you can see Wima down there even in way expensive audio items as Dartzeel or CH : https://dartzeel.com/en/ http://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/ch_precision_upgrade_addition.htm Those electronics goes over 50K-60K each item. Or D'Agostino 250K amplifiers: https://www.dandagostino.com/products/relentless-monoblock.php You can look elsewhere and you will find out Wima caps. I don’t think that the Wima MKP10s goes only with my heavy tweacked ADS speakers and by " coincidence " goes the FKP1 in the Levinson’s input where outperformed the V-caps teflon Cu ! ! I certainly can be wrong but what I don’t think is that Wima is wrong. To many years in the cap business that makes Wima an overall industry true standard,. Coincidence too? Give you the opportunity and give a second chance to Wima, you can’t lost nothing but your time and maybe just maybe can have unexpected rewards. R. |
They are used for cost reasons mostly. Gear is full of them and no way the high end builders could use a much more expensive part that is used so extensively. Circuit boards are full of them. The already high priced gear would cost thousands more in some cases. Small physical size is another reason why they sell. They fit well on modern circuit boards. They are on spec and available in great quantities. They are good at what they do for sure. Lastly, they just sound good, not great, but do little or no harm to the design. Doing harm is a different standard than bringing out the gear’s very best however. I just experience this part differently than you it seems. Again, I am glad you like them so much. I am sure it is a subjective preference based on your particular assortment of gear, room and ears. I suppose there is no right or wrong here. Just differing experiences and conclusions. |
Deasr @grannyring : Well, I'm talking and linked no-cost object audio items. I can't agree with you on the price subject. The gentleman that has 250K for a pair of amplifiers certainly has 300K easily too and he will be willing to pay that no-object price. All these products are designed and manufactured with no market price limitations, in this $$$$ market as higher the price the better. " They fit well on modern circuit boards. They are on spec and available in great quantities. They are good at what they do for sure. "" agree with but the small size because Wima has to many years in the market with the same cap sizes even the ones we can see on vintage electionics. """ Lastly, they just sound good, not great, but do little or no harm to the design. "" agree: are harmless, this characteristic is one that made that I sticked to Wima when in the past every where I seen a Wima always take out and changed for a " boutique " one or something " better ". " Sounds good, not great.... "" well the first step is that something can sounds good, this always is an advantage. Sounds " great " is something really elusive for me today other than Wima because before Wima I was listening great quality sound using boutique caps. The difference today is that that " old " great was in reality " fully coloration " not harmless/signatureless. Difference is coloration against only the it self MUSIC natural color through the Wima adding or losting almost nothing. I wish you could listen my system and caps comparisons on it. This is not only my opinion is shared too for some of my audio friends that already took the experiences in my system that all them knew very well. Two of them will take the Wima alternative in their systems. Other disturbing information is the one that any one of us can read in that " Humble....." caps whole comparisons when you can read there this about the V-cap Teflon Cu: """ Verdict: add about 2 points to whatever capacitor you are connecting it in parallel to. """ that is exactly the same veredict for the Duelung Ag caps. Wima FKPS1 outperformed the V-cap with easy. Cap of 0.033uf. Btw, this are the Wima caps I received today:
https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/WIMA/MKP1D052207J00MSSD?qs=dTJS0cRn7ogR%2FgtMmKhxzQ%3D%3D
as we can read tolerance is 20% and I already measured and 6 of the 8 caps measured: 21.3uf and the other 2- 21.1uf In the next two days I will try to make the time to connect the Wima caps and I will test the 4 need it Wima for each speaker plus the 10uf need it to arrive near 100uf but because I still have the Alumen Z in 10uf I will try and latter on I will try with the 10uf Wima cap and see what happens. R. " |
Dear @grannyring : Your last post is comendable for many things. One is that makes me think. What is a capacitor? a very simple device and I don't have to explain you niothing about but anyway here is a wide explanation: http://web.mit.edu/viz/EM/visualizations/notes/modules/guide05.pdf No rocket science at all. Now, what want we that happen through a speaker crossover caps?: restrict/limit the frequency that will pass through with out adding or losting nothing else. It's simple job. The signal permited to pass trough must pass with out any alteration it has to pass straigth to make no harm and with out add " colorations " that at the end means distortions over a wide frequency range due that are not only the main notes but the developed harmonics.. So its job is simple but critical in importance. Wima makes that in that way: straigth, no harm, no colorations/distortions. TYhe boutique ones can't do it yet. Makes sense to you that the frequency signal is " looking for ": paper, wax or oil? This kind of designed caps has no scientific facts that can corroboret the needs of those materials that were used 70 years ago in the radio caps. I'm not engineer and makes no sense to me, maybe I can be wrong but after first hand experiences with several boutique caps I know something is way wrong down there. Btw, in this thread a gentleman linked information where we can see how bad measured Duelund caps and I posted that with its resistors is not better because it measures bad too. In the other side I decided to change the Duelund resistors I'm using in the crossovers and I alredy put the order for Powertron that is a Vishay group member. Talking of resistors Vishay is what Wima is with caps: a true industry standard and by coincidence both are german enterprises. Btw, Powertron build the latest top Mundorf resistors. R. |
Dear @grannyring : I read many good things about those Path Audio resistors and maybe if the Powertron/Vishay ones does not works at the Wima levels then I will go for the Path Audio. As a fact before I found out the Vishay/Powertron ones Path Audio was at the very top of my resistor list. Thank's to confirm its high quality. About theODAM I will call Chris to talk on the ODAM vs the Teflon Cu. Chris is an audiophile and I knowhim very well and he can tell me the " true " about because he knows will be a confidential call. Rigth now my priority are the bass range Wima caps. R. |
Dear @grannyring : Yesterday I decided to test the ODAM at the extremely critical amplifiers input position but unfortunatelly the ODAM does not comes yet with so low values as the 0.033uf that is need it. Reading through the V-caps site and reading the customers comments nothing says is way different than a " boutique " level caps but I can't attest it till V-cap could liberate lower values as the one I need it. As other V-cap customer opinions you use one of same words: " magic ". It's an audiophile word that I normally don't like to use because in audio as in other overallindustry " magic " just does not exist. What exist is solid mature engeering or not so solid/good engeneering. Yes,I know " magic " is only an expresion but.... Btw, today I willfinish to " assemble " the 6 caps need it foreach speaker bass range. This assemble is way time consuming due that the Wima caps are designed to use in circuit boards not hard wired as I do and its output pins are to short for an easy task about. I hope it will be worth this time consuming effort. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Magic is a good and proper word not just an audiophile word to be meet with distain. It rightly gets at the notion that some sensory experiences are hard to put into words and explain. In audio it expresses a sense of wonder and immersion into the music at deeper levels than previously enjoyed. I honestly think your now obvious anti-audiophile bias is greatly influencing and predetermining many of your tests and outcomes. |
Dear @grannyring : Certainly I'm not anti-audiophile and has not a bias in that direction because I'm an audiophile too. I'm against not true/faithful " musical " audio items. You can read in my Agon virtual system my main system/audio targets and I'm building a room/system to stay nearer to those audiophile/Music lover targets. From some years now I use only SS electronics, no tubes any more because tube technology is not faithful to the near field MUSIC live experience. Tubes are noisy, has higher distortions, low whole resolution and very bad at both frequency extremes. I owned and tested from the Ongaku-On by Audio Note to entry level tube electronics and some old times I was in love with the tube " fake " sound till I learned. A good SS electronic design is way superior and overall has a very high resolution and accuracy with very low noise and distortions of every kind where you can't hide nothing because any weak ling in the system chain will go out when in the tube electronics the weak links are hidden behind all the tube poor technology. Take a look about the boutique caps the audiophile normal caps where in electronics are used mainly with tube electronics. The very first site page in the ODAM V-cap shows the ODAM caps inside a tube electronics and the 90% of the " great " comments came from tube electronics owners. Same with Jupiter or Duelund where tubes natural failure technology cover the true behind those " magic " caps. Jupiter site: """Beeswax HT Cryo Capacitors – Round A classic design utilizing modern materials and knowledge without forgetting original manufacturing techniques. You will get exceptional detail and nuance, and most importantly great tone. " and most importantly great tone. IMHO a cap is not a tone device but must be a totally neutral one. WIMA caps are totally neutral caps that can tell you your electronics or systems failures. Are straigth caps where nothing can hide behing a " glamorous " cap performance and maybe is that charactyeristic of Wima what normally we don't like it because we are not accustomed to that faithful to MUSIC kind of sound. WIMA caps permit that a good SS designs or speakers can shows it at its best, obviously that exist not so good SS designs and the Wima can tell tus that not so good design. WIMA caps is a true challenge for any room/audio system, it'0s not only a cap but a true challenge as it's the today digital alternative. I'm not against tubes, I'm against average/mediocre quality performance levels because I already experienced that kind of levels coming from tubes and from SS too. These first hand experiences improved my discriminating test comparison/evaluations. Yes, is only my opinion but is shared for other audiophiles that listened my system. No, my system is far away from be perfect. Nothing is perfect and I always am in the quest ofv that " perfection ". I work with facts according my room/system targets and even that I don't listen yet the WIMA in the speaker bass range till today WIMA puts me nearer to those targets. As I said before I respect a lot your opinion and our disagreements comes by our different ( not so different I think ) targets. I mean not so different because you and me first than all are music lovers that at the end is what really matters. Our audio hobby is full of fun learning fun. Today I finished the interconnect both six caps set for the crossovers and I want tomorrow to solder it to the speakers and give at least 24 hours of continuos playing for the WIMA settle down, so maybe this Saturday I can begin with the specific evaluation of the caps in that frequency range. R. |
Dear @grannyring and friends: through this thread I " learned " a lot and for me it's not of personal preferences bias but for me is: what is rigth and what is wrong, no matters what I like . In this thread my internal " mouse " made " click " when I made an overall research through the net about caps and read carefully a lot of information and along that all my past first hand experiences: good experiences and bad experiences too. WIMA as Analog Devices or Texas Instruments are not corporations dedicated to the audio high end, as a fact all them just does not cares about we audiophuiles needs. Those kind of item corporation are world INDUSTRIAL supliers for any kind of industries as: all digital industry, military industry, aero space or aeronautic enterprises, car manufacturers, medical industry and any one you can name it. Why all the industry goes with them and other same kind of caliber suppliers? because the world industry are not looking for " snake oil " ( as us, including me. ) but they are looking for a matured and proved solid engeneering. That's why I pull the triguer with the Powertron resistors when I remember of Vishay corporation that is an industrial supplier. I was willing to buy Path Audio resistors but this is a high end audio supplier not the Vishay levels. Look, which kind of solder are we using?, normally audio high-end like: Audio Note, WBT, Mundorf, Oyaide and the like. Well I already used all those and several other coming from different " manufacturers " in the audio high-end market but from a few months now I'm using a specialist INDUSTRIAL solder supplier: AIM, nothing comes nearer to it and they have several kind of alloys, flux, etc, etc and even receive custom orders from the industry and manufacture in specific for that customer. Well, we can't find out Wima cap´s or AIM solder in the high end catalog suppliers as HiFi Collectve or Parts conextion or M.Pertcy, you can name it. Unfortunatelly we audiophiles are not accustomed to those great great INDUSTRIAL suppliers products that are way way a head of the normal high end products. I know the high end industry is not rigth but wrong or not so good as we could think. The fuses threads is a clear example of what I'm talking about and people die for that snake oil fuses. I was there but fortunatelly today I just don't use any input fuses in my system. No, it's useless to test the ODAM cap´s or the Path Audio resistors. I go for that mature and proved solid INDUSTRIAL engeneering. Please think about and better than that any one of you or all give you an opportunity to " feel " the reality/true of what you are listening even if you are way satisfied. Try to be opened for what you never experienced before: why not ? what can you lost? Btw, the ADS bass range cap value spec is 100uf and my WIMA measured 101.2 and 101.6 on each channel and are caps with 20% tolerance specs. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear friends : I already soldered the caps and not yet listened nothing because I have no time to do it but I swirtch on the whole system to check nothing gone " wrong " with my job and something really good happened. Things are that for whatever reasons the lice source system selection is as always dead silence but before the Wima bass range changes something change it about noise level through the analog switch selection: my phononolinepreamp always was and is dead silence with any cartridge but from some time now through analog I had a hum noise in the rigth side subwoofer. I checked everything including the cables paths and even inside my phonolinepreamp unit and that hum noise just stays there an audible when SPL are rounding the 90db. Well, guess what that hum noise just disappeared through the Wima bass range changes. Have I an explanation about? not for sure but now that the V-caps " disappeared " the hum gone with too. Any explanation from some one of you? or an advise about? R. |
Dear friends : I already tested those fenomenal WIMA caps in the bass range crossovers. Now, my speakers has 100% hard wired WIMA caps and at each filter caps crossover are matched in between with a very low tolerance of .04% of capacitance. I don't know how important is that speakers caps match but my mind is more calm with. In this thread a gentleman posted that is almost easy to be aware of caps changes in the mi and high frequency ranges and that he thougth that is difficult to be aware in the bass range. Well my today first hand experiences is way different. In the past and in several different threads I posted that as better quality performance levels in your speakers bass range as better the whole system quality level performance and through this outstanding ( and I mean it. ) experiences with Wima I confirm again that statement and not only with my system but with several other systems. Other than that hum that disapeared with no know reason the first way different listening sound that really impress me was the female voice " body " that aquired with those caps, I have not other word but body to explain what I heard and hear. Second sound characteristic iwas and is with piano recordings where we literally can " see " the piano chords vibrations as if we been the piano player, just fenomenal ! ! Third was and is the extremely clear and precise definition of bass range notes/harmonics that you can follow/distingish as never before, just like in a near field live MUSIC event. It's not only about bass range definition and resolution but a true overall foundation for the whole MUSIC system experiences. Now, that kind of bass range very high quality levels makes that the mid and high frequency ranges achieved new quality levels: whcih quality levels?, you just name it and are there. Yes, now I can appreciated many recorded information that was " hidden " through room/system distortions of every kind. @grannyring posted in this thread: """ while the Wima caps are masking it. This would make sense as the Wima caps are not top class in resolution or refinement . """ Resolution?, well my take with a cap is not about resolution but sounds degradation. At the end the crossover caps job is to let the signal pass through but the signal frequency filtered/blocked. I can't be wrong with that statement but is my take. Now, WIMA caps makes exactly that: lest pass the signal with out DEGRADATION you can be aware and the high-end caps just can't do that simple job because those added colorations are not other thing that signal degradation, added distortions to the valuable and sensitive MUSIC signal. When any one of you could make what I already did it you will fall in count all the why's of my statements It's not that WIMA works in my system because I?M totally sure it works in any " decent " room/system. There is no reason with this/that kind of proved solid true engeneering that Wima has and makes they are the industrial standard. Btw, I already received the Powertron/Vishay crossover resistors that I will connect maybe in 10-15 days now and I will report on it and how works against the Duelunds I'm using. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
"
Have I an explanation about? not for sure but now that the V-caps " disappeared " the hum gone with too. Any explanation from some one of you? or an advise about? " Now my experience is with Klipsch but I figure what crossover components do with them they do with others too. All the old Mylar caps in crossover 20 years+ old i have measured after removal have at a bare minimum .15 ESR and often higher than .5 ESR. New ones I use measure maybe .004 at the top end. It makes for some downright sour sounding speakers at times until you switch them out. Best bang for the buck upgrade on older speakers is recapping your crossover and you don't need silly expensive caps to sound really good. |
Dear @mahlman : If it's true that my ADS speakers are old it's true that this is not the first time I made or make a re-capping in the crossovers. As a fact I already spended hundreds of dollars testing/changing the original caps with different boutique caps including: Duelun, Mundorf, Jantzen, V-caps, Sonicraft and the like and WIMA outperformed all the boutique caps. R. |
Dear friends: There are other really important issues for the better with the Wima caps that latter on I will post. I just measured the Powertron resistors that I bougth with spec of 1% tolerance for 12.00 british pounds each one. Each speaker needs 2 different values resistors. Well, the Powertron are inside that 1% tolerance, in reality are at 0.5%. Powertron offers this model of resistors with a tigther tolerance as low as 0.01% for a very high price: around 80.00 british pounds for each one but I not only do not need that kind of tolerance but I'm not crazy to pay that price. In the otherside and just because it was need it I bougth the Z-foil 2575 Vishay naked resistors with a 0.01% tolerance for my personal RIAA phonolinepreamp and for the Levinson's input resistors. So, rigth now all the passive parts in the ADS crossovers are very well matched in between with lower tolerance. I remember that I paid a 10% fee to Alpha-Core inductors that alpha-core policy was that the ribbon silver ones only by customer orders, they had not on stock. In theory are matched at 1% or lower tolerance. R. |
Dear friends : Even that this tread was and is converted in a " monologue " and not a dialogue as any other thread I feel that anyway I have to share my WIMA experiences. First that female " body " that's not a rigth word for what I'm listening and what I want to say/express is: the dimensional space of that female " instrument " sound that through the Wima tooks an overall new " meaning " with very precise/defined tri-dimensional " body " and this happens not only with the female voice but with any instrument we are listening and the more impressive issue is that with complex music scores as Gladiator or the Tuttis in 1812 Overture or any of the Mahler symphonies or Berlioz Fantastique Simphony or Beethoven 9th we can distinguish in precise way each instrument in its single/singular tridimensional space. We listen the overall sound instruments mixed but we can " see " we are aware of each tridimensional specific space position in the stage as we do it only through near field live MUSIC event but just can't through a home system, at least not at the levls I'm doing it for the very first time in my audio life. Other great listening characteristic is that if we pass from 95db SPLs to just around 80db SPL's does not changes anything but the SPL . The MUSIC dynamics, power, natural color, transients, rythm, overall soundstage, natural agresiveness and brigthness, decay time, detail and the like does not changes in anyway, so today I can really enjoy MUSIC at the early 80db SPL as never before in any room/system I experienced with. The recorded MUSIC is looking for and is hungry/starving for friend's MUSIC room/systems and the best friend's MUSIC is the " audiophile " that facilitate or makes easy its reproduction trying to prevent/take off all the obstacles in the path/road of that recorded MUSIC to denigrates it its integrity at minimum, preserve that MUSIC integrity picked up by the recording microphones. The high-end/boutique caps goes against that main MUSIC target in a way higher levels that the humble Wima caps that IMHO is the only cap that puts me nearer than ever to that main and way elusive target. Till you have those Wima caps in your system you will follow listening to those high colorations/distortions and far away from the true live MUSIC. Unfortunatelly we all are members of that " terrible/horrendous " AHEE where we learned all what we are in audio. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @grannyring friends: Following your advise and as I posted I soldered the Wima caps in parallel instead using one cap with the capacitance need it value. So two caps in parallel to achieve that capacitance value. If I remember you told that the inductance goes lower. In the other side that’s how Rel caps works and I used it, as a fact I still use the RTX series in the speaker back tweeter ( and add-on by my self. ). Well, a few days ago I was thinking that I was using V-caps teflon Cu in the crossover in parallel as " by-pass " caps and when I take off from the Jantzen Alumen Z the quality performance improved then I made an internet research looking for technical information about the true advantages to use " by-pass " caps in speaker crossovers or caps in parallel and things are that does not exist a true technical/information that can corroborate all these. So, I changed the caps in parallel in my speakers tweeter and band pass filters for a single cap at each crossover position and guess what: the whole quality levels performance improved in significant way, almost everything improved and now I’m looking for the cap values I need in the other frequency ranges but it’s not an easy task to find out those cap needs. Anyway that change is a learning lesson about and I think that through this thread I learned and I’m sure will learn some other true facts about caps through first hand experiences with patience and testing what no other audiophile dare or take a risk on this overall fascinating subject. Certainkly I will never again use speker crossover caps in parallel or " by-pass " caps, problem as I said is to find out the cap stand alone cap. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear friends: The main subject in this thread is exactly its title. In the past I already tested almost all the very expensive " snake oil " caps to know which is better, unfortunatelly all are more colored than a true cap. Today I’m using my first true capacitor that are the WIMA ones but I can’t be sure if Wima achieves the thread title subject till I test other true caps contenders that can challenge Wima caps. The only thing I know rigth now is that Wima outperforms with easy any boutique/high end capacitor. So, I put an order for Kemet, Epcos/TDK and Vishay caps. I will do it step by step as with the Wima. I ordered the caps for the tweeters and band pass crossover filters. Btw, I don’t soldered yet the Powertron resistors instead the Duelund I use and I will change it till I finish the whole caps tests/evaluations. When I tested the Powertron I will report on it. I’m sure it will be a true resistor and not a expensibe " snake oil " resistor as the ones I’m using. We will see if that can be confirmed. In the mean time good luck for all of you. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear friends : What a challenge for me and my room/system this overall true capacitors evaluation. Due that all those true capacitors have not the normal snake oil capacitor colorations/distortions we have to have a well trained brain/ears and a real high resolution room/system to be aware of differences in between the different manufacturer true caps. Not an easy task to detect it those differences and if your system has not a real high resolution then you just can't say not only the differences but the quality levels of those " tiny "differences if you think exist those differences. Things are that those true caps ( Wima, Vishay, TDK, Kemet, etc,. ) are caps that makes what it's supposed a cap must does and nothing more. So and due that in the overall industry exist a fierce competence in between those true caps manufacturers the quality performance levels in between are to close, extremely close. Rigth now I know that the evaluation will take me a lot more time that I was accustom too. At this momnet I'm very satisfied with my decision to pull the triger for all these kind of true caps. I'm learning a lot and learning why this or that manufacturer took " some " cap design " characteristic and other did it in a diferent way. Sure that I need more time and hard work with this overall true caps evaluation but what I found out at this begin with let me to order the caps for the mid range speakers crossover as for the woofer too. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear friends: Temptation wins over my mind and even that I do not end the crossovers caps tests overall evaluation this week I soldered the Powertron/Vishay resistors instead the Duelund I was using in the speakers. The crossovers comes with two resistors each one. Well Vishay is Vishay and the differences for the better are nigth and day, nothing less. Those differences are so high in favor Powertron that I had to re-start the overall caps evaluation. That " nigth and day " tell me that Duelund is not a snake oil or boutique high end device but a JUNK/TRASH products and I mean it. I was using that junk passive device following the expert audiophiles and exactly as I followed to the audiophile community with several junk very expensive capacitors. With Vishay or Wima or Epcos and the like even a deaf gentleman can be aware o0f those very high coloration/distortion levels of all those junk devices against true caps/resistors and all those is not because I say it but because is in that way and you will understand it when you can give you the opportunity to have first hand experiences. Yes, my resistor/caps humble and true items discovery is a true new audio world discovery no matters what. Even that I do not finish yet all the caps evaluation my system is performing as I never never in my audio life could imagine or dream can do it to that high quality levels ! ! !. Formidable for say the least. This is a true home room/system " live MUSIC " experiences. Of course that any one of us can decide to stay with the junk or go to the real MUSIC. Please no offense about. I took my caps/resistor decision against what all audiophile community was doing and regarded. I did it with out worry or distress of what any audiophile gentleman could think about my actions. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Yes, I know almost for sure that in the few next years the high-end manufacturers of speakers will follow using those kind of junk/trash crossover passive devices. I said that because I can’t imagine that Tidal Audio site can shows instead of these crossover passive junk devices used in its 250K+ speakers: https://www.tidal-audio.com/technology-crossover/ Visay or Wima or Epcos and the like passive devices. Could you imagine that? At least I can be sure they don’t show it with so proudly attitude as they are doing it. Of course they don't know yet or have the knowledge and experiences I have. I’m totaly sure too that that same speakers with those humble passive devices in its crossovers will performs better than what they have rigth now, maybe not nigth and day but who really knows. Well, I really don’t care about, what I care is to follow learning through this lovely and fabulous journey that I think I’m just touching the tip of the iceberg. This will continue.... R. |
I bought some Wima caps long ago when this thread first started didn't have time to put them in until a month ago. I used a second system to test Wima out. I replaced some Jupiter copper foils, V Caps, Jantzen Alumens, Miflex Copper. I put them in a Bruce Moore Preamp, LSA Statement towers with outboard crossover and Usher Tiny Dancers. I let Wima run for a month or so hoping they would become the cap you say they are, that never happened. They are just as much of a tone control as the boutique caps. Wima's dull the sound which is controlling the tone. I found them to sound just what they are cheap compared to boutique caps. I had some Solens laying around so I flipped them in. Some areas the Wima sounded better compared to the Solens some the Solens sounded better than Wima. In no place did the Wima sound better than Jupiter or V Cap. With Wima the natural sparkle and air is lost which becomes muted. If air and sparkle is colored I prefer colored. I mean no disrespect but I find the exact opposite of your findings. |
Dear friends: I want and need to clarify that the use of the junk word was not at any moment used as derogatory but only a way to say that those passive devices are useless for the MUSIC reproduction. Yes, those passive parts are the ones we are accustom to but in reaklity what we are accustom to are not only those devices heavy colorations/distortions but to the intrinsec colorations/distortions of our room/systems especially the audiophiles that are using tube electronics. Live MUSIC has several characteristics ( that through this thread I posted some of them. ) and a main one has a name: ACCURACY ( please not confuse with analytical. Way diferent.. ). A score from a comnposer comes with that accuracy characteristic and when that score is played the director of the orchestra ( or whatever. ) wants to interpret the composer " feelings " and during that score play everything must be doing with accuracy starting with the rigth orchestra instruments tone/note. With out that MUSIC can’t exist as MUSIC but only some kind of sounds. Timing, pitch, tone balance and the like means ACCURACY and this word is the name of that game. Now we want and like the MUSIC listening in our home systems and for me the very first and the main target in any room/system ( no matters what/price. ) is to reproduce that recorded MUSIC as accurated as we can. That means to stay nearer to the recording, nearer to what the recording michrophones picked up at its near field position. For we can try to achieve those targets we need and is a must condition to put at MINIMUM all kind of distortions/colorations, noises generated through our room/systems. With out that what we have are only some kind of full colored sounds that we like it becauase we are accustomed in that way for several several years. Of course that if we do not took care about in the past then it’s sure that our room/system is full of " nice " colorations/distortions and when suddenly we change something in our system: cables, electronic devuices, speaker, passive devices and the like that are more accurated those devices will shows what we don’t want to know and this is our " sad " reality. It’s exactly what happens when we are accustomed to the analog/LP alternative and suddenly we switch to digital in an analog fine tunned room/system. What happens?: we just don’t like the accurated digital alternative. The same happens when we switch from tubes to SS electronics: we don’t like SS quality level performance because we are not accustomed to accuracy and high resolution room/systems. I already been there, I passed through both experiences: analog to digital and tubes to SS. I had to learn in deep about and decided where is the true MUSIC and why. We like those " nice " colorations and everykind of distortions but these is not really MUSIC or what the microphones pick up is only what we like it. Today what’s what I like. Well first than all I work hard in the last 10+ years to achieve a very high resolution and accurated room/system. A system that can tell me and let me feel and let my mind generates the true emotions that only true MUSIC can do it. That’s why I started to look for opportunities to listen live MUSIC seated at nera field position and understand the importance of MUSIC transiients, timing, natural agresiveness or brithness, power and dynamics as tone in what I listen and for reproduce in home those characteristics we only can do it if our room/system has that high resolution and accuracy levels where any kind of colorations is out of question. Wima, Vishay, Epcos, etc. are extremely high resolution devices with a extremely accuracy too and with no single COLORATION/DISTORTIONS you can detect, at least till I discover if exist those kind of distortions because today my first hand experiences are really new and I’m still learning. @paulcreed sure you are rigth and agree with you and if you try Vishay or Epcos instead Wima you will listen the same but that is not a guilty/reponsible of those accurated " zero colorations " caps/resistors devices. Your system is not ready for those devices , we need to make a lot of work before we can be THERE and really appereciate all what I’m enjoying today. It’s a proccess not an excercise of just change a cap for other one. It’s a learning proccess before Wima or Vishay. That’s why you said: " They are just as much of a tone control as the boutique caps. "" with all respect to you I can tell you that those cheap devices are far far away to be a tone control, it’s the other way around. Your system needs the tone control devices you are accustomed to hear. Accuracy is not part of that system yet. Look, when the COVID-19 " dissapears " any one can be my guest and listen what I’m talking about. I’m not a hardware lover but a MUSIC one and I need that my room/system can reproduce MUSIC with accuracy. That’s all about. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @paulcreed and friends: From where comes that high resolution/accuracy and high quality performance levels of Wima, Vishay, Kemet or Epcos? True engineering to acomplish the very strict true industry standards. Please check any datasheet through Vyshay or Wima and the like caps/resistor devices and you can confirm my statement and look at Duelund or Jupiter and the like sites where exist no true datasheets and obviously no single standard to accomplish for because these is not the levl of quality and the levels of engineering you or me are asking for. We are asking for just nice colorations, we don't care if that paper/wax/oil is really need it to reproduce MUSIC with ACCURACY and " Zero distortions ". Common sense. What all of us like has nothing to see/count in what must or should be on the whole passive devices quality performance levels. Hey !, I already spend thousands of dollars in those junk of caps I know for sure what I'm talking about and common sense says something is and are just wrong with that junk devices. Please some one of you can prove that the one that's wrong is me not those colored caps. I really appreciated some of you can prove it with facts and where are that engineeering boutique caps that I said and say does not has. Welcomed, it's in benefit of all of us. Don't be shy or be worry about. R. |
Dear @paulcreed : "" Wima’s dull the sound which is controlling the tone. I found them to sound just what they are cheap compared to boutique caps............ I find the exact opposite of your findings. """ As I said I agree with you and gave you some explanation about. Please look and with no disrespect to you or any one: we know what is the capacitor function in a crossover or coupling job. Wima as Vishay or Epcos and Kemet and as I explained through this thread are signatureless devices are straigth devices that " impedes " in no way that the signal pass through in direct, fast and free of distortions. The construction and engineering behind all these caps are very similar as it’s its high quality performance level. The signal after passed by these caps is just " pristine "/mimic as how was before pass through. It’s not that way because I say it but other that all the caps sites information exist the gentlemans that already listened my system after those crossover changes where all them had previously the knowledge on how my system performed before those changes ( some of them are music players. ). I posted: " sad reality " and unfortunatelly it’s that way and you are comfirmed exactly what I said it in the thread. Believe me: that dull sound is how your system really sounds/performs and this fact is a good notice for you because you have a big land to improve it using those caps/resistors as the tools you need it for those kind of up-grades that will let you arrive to a formidable improvement in your system and listening experiences. It’s worth to detect where are the problem at each link in the system chain, it’s not an easy task but a whole system job step by step and at the rigth time use those caps/resistors to know that what we did it was in rigth way to really live the MUSIC system sesions. To many true rewards to name it here. We have to lived. It’s not just a change of " shoes " . We have to let it go our bore or lazy to make the overall job and please remember the meaning in MUSIC and systems about ACCURACY. I know that you can tell me: if ACCURACY is that dull sound I don't want it but those tone controls you are accustom to. Don't be afraid of accuracy, it's the true name of the game. What is what a electronics manufacturer is looking for: between other things accuracy everywhere and the same for a speaker designer or whatever product. The tone controls are after market devices ! ! ! exactly as the fuses and other true snake oil items and all these is because that way corrupted AHEE lessons. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
