http://www.referencerecordings.com/HRxSETUPS.asp, use a Dell Optiplex instead of the XPS 410.
Also see:
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/audiophile_reference_music_servers_osx_windows |
this thread is getting out of hand.
as has been mentioned many times in the past, "better" and "best" is subjective. until someone defines what better is and can prove, objectively of course, that component a is better than component b, its all just opinion.
sorry dave, the logic is perfectly clear and you have provided nothing to refute it--end of story !!! |
Dcstep:I've copied below the questions I posed to you in my prior post, which I'm hoping you will answer.
>>>>Neither I nor the first respondent (Mikelavigne) has written a bold faced lie; yet, are our claims any LESS subjective than would be Newly's even if he's done the comparisons you're so fixated on? <<<
>>>If I told you I also deliberately worded my claim to maximize it's potential boost to Scarlatti sales because I've gotten to know a few people at Audiophile Systems Ltd and want to help them sell more of these expensive units in a difficult economy, would I be in violation of the "code of ethics" to which you refer? <<< |
Dcstep - Below is a copy of the post I responded to on 08-31-08 (my bad - it IS still in the queue):
>>>Mikelavigne
JB0194, you mention that you agree with Newly.....
are you saying that you think that the DCS Puccini is 'best' compared to the others that Newly mentioned.....which infers he has compared these units?
Without any doubt the best today available digital front is dCS Scarlatti, forget Payback designs, EMM labs, Zanden and others toys, I dont own it, but if one day I have the money..., and sorry I have one EMM labs combo that is vey good
or that you really like the Puccini and prefer it to others you have heard?
these are two quite different things to say. i am still waiting for Newly to answer DCstep's question about whether Newly has actually compared the Puccini to those he mentions or is he just guessing.....specifically has he compared the Puccini to the Playback Designs (which has only been on the market since mid-June).
btw; the Puccini may be best but i have not done any comparisons to venture an opinion about that.<<<
Dcstep: I particularly enjoyed Mikelavigne's "or is he just guessing" comment, in light of Mikelavigne's own "the MPS-5 might be on another level compared with anything out there" remark. Also, ignore his mistaken reference to "Puccini" though it is, arguably, the dCS digital source most similar to his "horse".
Now, I again invite you to address all questions in my last post. I've tried very hard to specific with you. Please repay me in kind. I respectfully suggest that you copy and paste each question, then add your answer - it'll help you to focus. |
Jb0194, you responded to a phantom post on 8/31. Maybe that's the source of your confusion. If you equivicated your agreement with Newly, I've missed it. (I couldn't make sense of that response of yours because the subject post no longer exists, evidently.)
You can make almost any statements you want here so long as they're civil. If you want to be helpful to others you'll not use absolutes unless they're appropriate. Anyone reading this thread can easily evaluate you opinion.
So far as supporting dCS, there's nothing wrong with that, so long as you have no financial interest. If you do have a financial interest you should disclose it, IMHO, but you're not obligated to that standard. There's a reason that Reviewers, Dealers and Manufacturers disclose their status here. Enthusiasts are allowed to be just that, unbridled enthusiasts.
It's well know that I'm a Rowland, Playback Designs and Pro-ject enthusiast. If I make comparisons, I limit it to things that I've actually seen and heard. Since Newly's head is down, I don't think that is the case with him or her.
Dave |
#1 Dcstep states: "So, your unequivical agreement with Newly must have indeed been baseless."
In the first item of my 8-31-08 posting I clarified very specifically the extent to which I agreed with Newly. What about the phrase, "nothing more, nothing less" continues to elude you?
#2 To Dcstep: Your own statement, "This is not a magazine where we're "paid" for our opinions and there's a code of ethics, but generally when we say something like, "this is better than that" then we will have some basis for making a statement like that.", is all you should need to understand the last paragraph of my last posting. I hope (but will not assume, in this instance) that you know that the paragraph I appended to my "baseless claim" earlier today was copied from the initial response posted to this thread. Oops, my bad - I substituted "dCS Scarlatti DAC" for "MPS-5".
We both claim a product "might be on another level compared with ANYTHING ELSE OUT THERE" (my emphasis). Of course we both added that, in fact, we haven't actually heard everything in our systems. Oh, (and this will be of particular interest to you, I'm sure) I deliberately kept the word "might" rather than substituting "is", to further render my claim immune to debunking. Note: ONLY I acted deliberately here.
Neither I nor the first respondent has written a bold faced lie; yet, are our claims any LESS subjective than would be Newly's even if he's done the comparisons you're so fixated on?
And since you (not me) chose to bring ethics into the discussion, one final question, Dcstep: If I told you I also deliberately worded my claim to maximize it's potential boost to Scarlatti sales because I've gotten to know a few people at Audiophile Systems Ltd and want to help them sell more of these expensive units in a difficult economy, would I be in violation of the "code of ethics" to which you refer?
|
Mrt, I'm not interested in defining "improve" to you. You started that line and I'm not going down that road. You think that any change is an improvement, I must conclude from you examples. That's your perogative and I'm glad that you made that clear.
Dave |
Jb0194, your original vote for the dCS Scarlatti had no "might be" in it. You agreed with Newly, who was writing in absolute terms, specifically mentioning other brands that he had no doubt that the dCS was superior to. He's not reappeared here to verify that he'd actually listened to the others that he named. You now say as much now. So, your unequivical agreement with Newly must have indeed been baseless.
This is not a magazine where we're "paid" for our opinions and there's a code of ethics, but generally when we say something like, "this is better than that" then we will have some basis for making a statement like that. If you say, "I've heard people say this is better than that" then we'll know that you don't know and your passing along hearsay. That's ok. If you've heard the two pieces and you prefer one to the other, then it's entirely ok to say you like one better than the other and it can be really useful if you explain why. In your case, by virtue of agreeing with Newly, you indicated that you agreed that the dCS was better than the Playback Designs, when you hadn't heard the PD.
That's all I'm pointing out.
I can't understand your last paragraph. If you'd like me to try to answer it, would you rephrase it?
Dave |
Spectral SDR 4000 and Metronome Kalista reference with C2 DAC |
hi dave:
you have not specified what "improve" means. instead of invective, why not facilitate communication by defining "improvement". |
To Dcstep:
I hereby append my prior "baseless claim" as follows:
my opinion based on my experience with other digital i have heard is that the dCS Scarlatti DAC might be on another level compared to anything out there. but i have not had everything in my system to compare.
I ask you to once again critique it's worth - but THIS time along with the worth of the next to last paragraph of the initial response in this thread made to the original poster by another member on 8-03-08. |
Mrtennis said:
"i think that the sound of any component can be improved by changing caps and resistors, based on my own subjective orientation of 'improve'"
If you believe that, then how can we talk?? You statement cannot be absolutely true, but then you throw in your "subjective orientation of 'improve'". That's a rediculous statement that I can't really respond to.
Dave |
hi Emigene,
what system did you hear the Soulution 740 CDP in? & could you describe why you thought it was so impressive?! thks in advance. |
hi dave:
i have basically posited the concept of "improve the sound" as a "change in the sound" that is preferred.
thus, improving the sound implies changing it and preferring the change.
you have not specified what you mean by "change the sound".
i suspect that improve, in your view, means less inaccurate. |
Mrtennis, I'm afraid that you confuse "improve the sound" with "change the sound". ;-)
Dave |
>>to go from 96% of the highest quality available to get the 97% you MUST to pay double<<
Two questions:
1. How did you determine that?
2. How do you measure the 1%?
Thanks in advance. |
In SOTA electronics to go from 96% of the highest quality available to get the 97% you MUST to pay double, if you have a system that give you 45% and you want to get 50%, you only need to pay a little more, in relation to SACD, is not yet dead?
Before to move your money please hear Vitus, SOULUTION, MPS-5, and why not Memory player, it also deserves a great attention, for me one of the three best transport, if it is a transport. |
Thanks Emigene,
Haven't heard both the Vitus and Soulution player. The only thing that I have to consider is the price. The Soulution player is more than twice the price of the Vitus, but probably not twice as good. If the Vitus is only slightly less good I'll happily go for that unit. I also have a Vitus amp so I assume there must be some synergy there as well.
I wonder if I would miss the fact that both the Soulution and Vitus don't play SACD. |
Until now I did heard the Vitus only at the show, but I have heard the Soulution and I doubt that the Vitus can be better in equal conditions, and certanly Soulution is very very good, so good, that it changed my mind in relation of the digital front, perhaps the old formula transport and dac is not necesary, perhaps Soulution is the solution, but MBL, and Scarlatti are so very good... |
hi dave:
let me add another point.
i think the sound of any component can be improved by changing caps and resistors, based upon my subjective orientation of "improve". |
hi dave:
the term "improve the sound" needs to be defined.
i will define it subjectively as any change in performance that i prefer is an improvement in sound. thus, changing the tubes in a tube component presents an opportunity to improve the sound. any change in the sampling rate is an opportunity to improve the sound. any change in power cords, interconnects, etc., is a chance to improve the sound of a stereo system.
if you imply that reducing inaccuracy is the definition of sonic improvement, then you and i disagree with the concept of improvement in sound.
you and i have had this conversation before. ultimately, the owner of a stereo system will do what is feasible to create a presentation which satisfies his/her sonic priorities. from your perspective such efforts may not improve the sound, but rather make it worse.
i personally prefer components which allow the owner to affect changes in its sound. hence, i prefer tubes, tone controls and other user "controls" to allow me to voice the sound of my stereo system according to my wishes.
tinker and listen. one man's trash is another man's treasure. |
Jonathan Tinn told me that PD would be at CES. I'll write him to see which venue.
Dave |
Will Playback Designs be at CES this year and if so what venue. |
Mrtennis, I haven't compared to the PD to the AMR, so I can't comment on that, but many of us would consider the "amr's flexibility for changes in tubes and sampling rate" to be negative. If changing a tube can improve the sound, then that implies a weakness in the designer's unit as distributed.
I think those two things (circuit design and sampling rate) are the designer's responsibility and would hope that I couldn't improve upon the designer's choices.
BTW, I never have figured out why people put tubes in DACs. Is there any technical advantage to doing this?
Dave |
Mr. Tennis, rather than post hearsay, i'll e-mail you his e-mail address and you can ask him directly. we did not discuss any tube rolling or different AMR set-up choices. he typically calls me on the phone and it may take awhile to find his e-mail address.
i will e-mail this to you later today. |
hi mikelavigne:
why did your friend prefer the playback designs, given the amr's flexibility for changes in tubes and sampling rate ?
that is, in what respect did he find the playback designs a superior unit ? |
Jb0194 said"
"I agree with Newly" and
"I needn't be held to some comparative standard, yours or any others', to express an opinion. "
Newly said:
"Without any doubt the best today available digital front is dCS Scarlatti, forget Payback designs, EMM labs, Zanden and others toys,"
Jb0194 is entitled to all the baseless claims he desires to make. I just think that he shouldn't be surprised if someone calls him on them.
Claiming that the Scarlatti is better than the Playback Designs, Emm and Zanden without actually comparing is not an "opinion", it's a bold faced (fill in the blank).
Dave |
A response to my 8-30-08 post appeared this morning then promptly vanished.
To that poster:
1. I agree with Newly in that the dCS Scarlatti DAC is a part of the best digital source I have ever heard - nothing more, nothing less.
2. I have not directly compared dCS Scarlatti gear to your CDP, nor does the original poster set such a condition. He did ask that stock gear only be mentioned and I am at fault for mentioning my modded Lector CDT. FWIW, I alternate listening with a stock dCS Verdi transport and use a dCS Scarlatti master clock in that configuration. The sound is equally, maybe even more sublime - IMHO, as good as it gets absent a dCS Scarlatti transport.
3. My comparisons, fwiw, are to my current source, but with a dCS Elgar DAC and to an earlier source I owned for years, which consisted of an Ensemble Dirondo transport >> Stealth varidig Sextet BNC cable >> an Audio Note DAC 4.1x Signature DAC. Both were immensely satisfying digital sources and quite costly.
4. I needn't be held to some comparative standard, yours or any others', to express an opinion. You know very well that, even if I directly a/b'd my source with your CDP, our systems (including rooms) are completely different otherwise - making my opinion of said comparison just as subjective as the opinion I actually have offered and, arguably, less biased than yours since you "have a horse in the race".
5. My 8-30-08 post had zero to do with Newly's possibly sarcastic reference to your "horse". For all I know it sings with angels' voices but, frankly, that's irrelevant to me. |
Mikelavigne said:
"Mrtennis; a friend did recently take delivery of his Playback Designs, a few weeks later he sold his AMR-77. i believe his AMR was not the very latest version.
we discussed his opinion but as it is second hand info i don't think i should post it."
I heard the same thing about a month ago from a MPS-5 purchaser. It could be the same person that Mike speaks of, but all I have is an email address.
BTW, Playback Designs will be at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest. My MPS-5 will be the source in the Sounding/Sumiko/Rowland high end room. They'll be driving the new Vienna Acoustics reference speaker, "The Music", with Rowland amplification. Stop by and bring your CDs. This appearance is unofficial, but approved by PD.
Dave |
Mrtennis; a friend did recently take delivery of his Playback Designs, a few weeks later he sold his AMR-77. i believe his AMR was not the very latest version.
we discussed his opinion but as it is second hand info i don't think i should post it. |
JB0194, you mention that you agree with Newly..... are you saying that you think that the DCS Puccini is 'best' compared to the others that Newly mentioned.....which infers he has compared these units? Without any doubt the best today available digital front is dCS Scarlatti, forget Payback designs, EMM labs, Zanden and others toys, I dont own it, but if one day I have the money..., and sorry I have one EMM labs combo that is vey good or that you really like the Puccini and prefer it to others you have heard? these are two quite different things to say. i am still waiting for Newly to answer DCstep's question about whether Newly has actually compared the Puccini to those he mentions or is he just guessing.....specifically has he compared the Puccini to the Playback Designs (which has only been on the market since mid-June). btw; the Puccini may be best but i have not done any comparisons to venture an opinion about that. |
I forgot to mention that my friend used the DCS Puccini directly into his poweramps. Wonder if you put it through a pre the bass would improve???? |
I wonder has anyone compared the top players with some of the smaller exclusive brands like the Soulution 740 or the Vitus SCD-010 player???
I have the Emm Labs CDSA player and a friend of mine compared it to the DCS Puccini. He enjoyed the mids and high from the DCS much better than the Emm Labs but the Emm Labs had much better bass. (With his system of course).
I wonder if the Vitus and/or Soulution would be the best of both worlds? |
has anyone compared these esoteric and expensive products to an amr 77 ? if so what were the results ?
it helps to have a personal criterion for the designation "best". in my case, best means, least timbrally inaccurate, relative to the sound of an instrument, not the sound of a recording. |
I agree with Newly. I use a good transport (Lector with aftermarket clock) through a dCS Purcell to send 24/176 dual AES into a Scarlatti DAC. My digital cables are LessLoss RCA between transport and upsampler, LessLoss dual AES to Scarlatti ($250 apiece for the three wires a while back). The sound is sublime, even with the long signal chain. I had an Elgar DAC prior - a top notch unit as well, but not in the Scarlatti's class.
Start saving now to snap up a used Scarlatti DAC at half or less new price, once enough units have been in the field for a while and fickle audiophiles jump ship. I won't be one of them. |
Newly, so when did you compare the Playback Designs to dCS? I'm trying to work that out, but a conflict has kept it from happening. Can you be a little more detailed in your description of the differences?
I've compared the PD to Emm's CDSA-SE single-box unit. I preferred the PD by a good margin. My detail review is available elsewhere on A'gon.
Dave |
Without any doubt the best today available digital front is dCS Scarlatti, forget Payback designs, EMM labs, Zanden and others toys, I dont own it, but if one day I have the money..., and sorry I have one EMM labs combo that is vey good |
|
Without doubt, the Orpheus Heritage Dac and Orpheus transport! Especially if you love analog master tapes and the best vinyl. |
the naim 2 piece cd x from the 90'a. |
I'll pile on and renominate the Playback Designs MPS-5. I got a chance to hear it vs. the Emm CDSA-SE last week and much preferred the PD. (See my review in the Review section if you'd like to follow that in detail). Unfortunately, my chance to compare it to a dCS stack got deferred due to scheduling conflict, but we'll eventually get around to it.
A dealer in Denver is trying to become a PD dealer and take one to RMAF. I hope that works out. (I can't bring you all over to my house).
Dave |
I like to add Bryston BCD-1 cdp or their dac BDA-1. I have the BCD-1 and it sound is the most analog sounding i have heard. Many reviews availiable on the web. |
Mike i've read about your praise for the Playback Designs MPS-5. Intriguing, especially since it is more affordable than your previous digital source. Have you heard this compared to the DCS stack, and if so, what did you think of it? |
I stick with Nilthepill, for me the Zanden combo does it. |
Re: Absolute Sound Review of 069
If you read the review closely, it's evident that AC truly liked the Burmester,
but didn't feel it was a ''breakthrough'' product. AC ranked it slightly above the
EMM player and even preferred SACD on the latter to the Redbook layer on
hybrid discs played on the 069. Certainly at 60-65K that's not nearly good
enough.
A revealing reply by Robert Harley to a reader's letter states that compari-
sons of equipment to equipment meets with "resistance" from manufacturers.
Hmm.... |
Check my system ;) Thanks and will update. |
The Accustic Arts gear should be competive with anything out there for Red Book, but getting an audition is proabably close to impossible. It would be nice if the DAC came with USB. |
Bar. I think you shd check out some MIT cables. Pete |
Bar81. You shd know by now I'm a conservative guy so it's gotta be right. I just confirmed the spelling of E-N-V-Y,
Happy Listening & tell us all about it. Pete |
I know, I can't wait :) It's a demo unit so it should be broken in but I hear the KX-R needs break in on every input and I haven't used the RCAs so it'll probably be at least a couple of weeks. Plus I will be getting several of the top end Siltech cables (ICs, speaker and power) to play with so I'll keep myself busy in the meantime :) |
