Best Amp to drive my Apogee Stages?

The ICE modules are NOT continuous rated. The very high limits quoted, like the 250 / 550 watt ASP500 are time limited numbers. There FTC power is much lower. The output Zobel will fry. The ASP500 time limit is 60seconds while the ASP1000 is 30seconds.

Darkmoebius: Thank you for the well wishes :)

Clavil:

The GT-400 is a monster amp and will not sweat driving even the Diva. I was talking about smaller Tube amps Like the Audio Valve Challenger, which would generate 100plus wpc and will work fine with teh Stage and yes with loud Brucknor or other Orchestral pieces. Now, the Stage has its own limit that you cannot exceed even with a 1000 WPC SS amp.

But yes, I have driven the Stage with Krells too and they work fine but I prefer older Krells

02-14-10: Gallant_diva
I am driving my Stages with TRL GT-400 and I love it!!!!!!

At $85,000 a pair, I'd hope so!

Clavil

The TRL GT-400 are 400 watts each?....I'm 100% sure they can drive the little Stage with ease.

(My Onkyo M-504's don't even get past "warm" driving the Stage)

Dave

Clavil, How do you know when you have a speaker controlled "perfectly"?
The truth is you may never hear the true potential of a speaker like the Apogee. Because this is a hard speaker to drive there is no amplifier happy with the Apogee load therefore any amplifier connected to this type of speaker will never sound it's best.

I am driving my Stages with TRL GT-400 and I love it!!!!!!

I agree with So_good that a *good* 100-150 WPC tube amp can drive the Stage well.

A good tube amp to consider is Audio Valve Challenger. Its sound is lush and seductive.

that's fine but can you tell us how they sound when you hear Bruckner 8th symphony at realistic volume or some Puccini or Wagner opera ?

If you want to get the best out of these speakers you need to control them perfectly ...
and this was quite a problem in the eighties

Matti, I am not partial to any brand of equipment. I am more interested in what components work well together. Probably the most popular amp used with Apogee speakers was the Counterpoint SA 220.

I used to have Stages I used adcom gfa555 and blew up 3 of em
then tried a Bryston 4b worked but did not sound as good as the adcom tried a carver tfm35 sounded better than the bryston. Settled on a pair of very modded Dynaco Mk III's I used that combo for 10 years or so

RRog, I get it - you like Rowland...fair enough. Aragon made good quality affordable gear. I've owned Krell and Levinson and the Aragon is quite good. I believe it also acts close to a voltage source down to 2 ohms. See link devoted to apogee scintilla - note amps recommended.

http://www.apogeespeakers.com/scintilla.htm

I am driving my Stages with TRL GT-400 and I love it!!!!!!

I agree with So_good that a *good* 100-150 WPC tube amp can drive the Stage well.

A good tube amp to consider is Audio Valve Challenger. Its sound is lush and seductive.

but it won't be "too much" power ...

quote]Matti, why do you find the Rowland recommendation confusing? Is it because the Rowland 5, which I recommended, will deliver 600wpc into a 2 ohm load and it might be too much power for the Stage?
Honestly, Aragon is nothing more than a glorified midfi amplifier. Please don't confuse this product with highend. [/quote]

absolutely right

Sogood51--Dave, I had a Krell KSA-250 on my Stage panels for several years so I know what they can do. By moving on I also found out what they can't do.

I agree that tube amps and Stages can be very enjoyable. I borrowed some tube amps and tried them so I fully understand the seductive quality. I chose more power but I certainly could not fault anyone for choosing the tube route. In fact, I would be a little envious of the sound. It is the logistics--heat, tube replacement, etc that I rejected. I am not the right temperment.

Don_s

I've had plenty of clean power on mine (Krell Ksa-250, 4.5 kva transformer)....they did sound great.

but they sound great with my tube amps also :-)

I guess the baby Krell just couldn't cut the mustard?....probably overheated from being overdriven?...small power supply, and not enough heat sink.

Dave

Matti, why do you find the Rowland recommendation confusing? Is it because the Rowland 5, which I recommended, will deliver 600wpc into a 2 ohm load and it might be too much power for the Stage?
Honestly, Aragon is nothing more than a glorified midfi amplifier. Please don't confuse this product with highend. I have seen the Aragon protection circuit turn the amp off at idle with a pair of Martin Logan CLS. A Dynaco Stereo 70 would play the CLS with ease.
You are doing an injustice to the Jeff Rowland Design Group, Loveitloud and any Audiogon memebers reading your posting that the Jeff Rowland Model 5 is not a good recommendation for a load below 4 ohms. Not to mention the poor guy trying to sell his amp here.
Wilson Audio even chose a Rowland amp to power their WOW subwoofer when they could ave had any amp they wanted.

Sogood51 I am glad you are happy with your Stages used as part of a Mini Grand system but I have to disagree with you about power requirements. I have had Stages (later Mini Grands) for 18 years and when I finally put serious power on them I discovered new speakers. Clavil has it right.

Stage speakers can sound very good with high quality, lower-power amps and respond to tubes very well but, in my opinion, to unlock their full potential requires more power. The caveat is it has to be clean power from an amp that has good control. If the midrange/tweeter ribbon starts to dance either the speaker is being pushed past its limits or the amp is clipping.

I don't find my Stage particularly hard to drive...100 watts of solid state or tube amps (with a good power supply) is up to the task in my room. I guess if you like to play music at loud levels (90-100 db) you should play it safe and get 200 watts or so?

I've used Krell Ksa-250, Krell Kav-500, Rogue Audio M-120 Magnum, Onkyo M-504, and Outlaw Audio 755....none had a problem driving the Apogee Stage.

I'm surprised you have had amp problems...you must play very loud music?

EDIT: Woops.....LoveItLoud (I should have saw that).

Dave

No need to spend a lot - find a used Aragon 8008BB. I find the Rowland recommendations a bit puzzling as I would never choose them to drive anything below 4 ohms.

Unsound, I don't think Loveitloud is going to get a recent Rowland class D amp that fits into his budget of under $2000.

I also recommend class D, even Nuforce would do well.

Having the power and control factors with much less heat, maintenance, current draw and initial cost.

Put a good tube preamp in front of them and you almost have the best of both worlds.

The Stage is a great speaker and has the best midrange after Quads based on my personal experience and thus deserves a good amp especially a tubed one. For low price solid State, try a McCormack.

Loveitloud

at your place I would try to borrow some class D amplifier for a few days ...

then you will have a clear idea of what happens, I bet you will discover a new couple of speakers in your Apogee ...
this happened to me with my Infinity which need also quite a bit of current

then you can try to find something which matches with your budget ... in class D there are a lot of alternatives even a Danemark based company (I can't remenber the name now) which is selling 1000 W / 4 ohms monoblocs for less than 1000$ !!

good luck ... let us know

1. The Rowland Model 5 & Model 7s are getting old.
I don't believe Rowland will want to support or repair them indefinitely. Older Model 5s & Model 7s have been through many thermal cycles - being turned on & off. The output transistors eventually fail & they are expensive to replace.
I'm not biased against Jeff Rowland. I own a Model 2 & I will not sell it anytime soon. It just sounds too good to me.
2. I own (7) Murano monoblocs. These are close in build to the Rowland 501s, they have the same B&O module. These will drive the Stages, the problem is a pair of Rowland 501s used are at least $3500.00, in good shape.
3. I'm going to suggest you try an Adcom 5500. I owned 2 of these and one will output 300 watts per channel to your Stages. They only cost around $550.00 used, you can buy an Adcom GFP 750 with the rest of your budget, and upgrade to any fully balanced amp later, the GFP 750 will be good enough to use with any amp already suggested..

Rrog, I'm not sure if your aware that most of Rowland's most recent amps are Class D. The last I heard D'Agostino's status with Krell is pending a court decision. Threshold's can either be repaired by the new owners of Threshold or by Jon Soderberg of Vintage Amp Repair. Jon was with Threshold when Nelson Pass was at the helm of Threshold. Jon might very well have been the person repairing ones Threshold amp back then. Jon has an inventory of Threshold parts and has a very good reputation, I too can vouch for his work. Nelson Pass has also demonstrated perhaps the most generous gift of his time and expertise in the industry with his help usually being available on DYYaudio.com.

Darkmoebius, yes, many class D amps are capable of much higher output than older Class A classics. For example, the Wyred 4 Sound ST-1000 puts out 570 watts/channel into 8-ohms and 1,140 Wpc into 4 ohms.

I personally, have not found a better sounding/performing amp than the W4S STI-500, which puts out 250Wpc into 8-ohms and 550Wpc into 4-ohms. A used ST-500 (the basic power amp, not the integrated) could likely be found in your preferred price range of $1200 and would pretty much smoke anything else that you could find for that kind of money, in my view.

Many of those who say these class-D amps are not in the same league with other great sounding conventional amplifiers have not actually compared them head to head...

02-12-10: Clavil
it would be very interesting to realize a blind test especially with all people who claim class D is not good enough

Do any of the current Class D offerings have the same, or equal, continuous current output capability as the late 80's/early 90's classic 100% Class A classics from Krell, Classe, Levinson, Rowland, etc?

Class D would be fine for your second system Clavil, but there is no class D amplifier in the same league as the Rowland

oh yes there is the Rowland 312 ...

it would be very interesting to realize a blind test especially with all people who claim class D is not good enough

Class D would be fine for your second system Clavil, but there is no class D amplifier in the same league as the Rowland. Besides, the Rowland 5 and the Stages are the same vintage. Apogee and Rowland sound wonderful together.
A lot has changed. D'Agostino is gone from Krell, Madrigal is getting picky about repairing old Levinson equipment and do you think Nelson Pass is going to repair his old Threshold amps? At least Rowland is still around and they have always been one of the best amps made.

02-11-10: Rrog
Jeff Rowland Model 5 is your perfect match. Currently listed on Audiogon for $1600.

or go class D, they will control them perfectly

Please give more info on your system.
If you're going to use a balanced preamp, you can utilize a balanced amp to it's fullest potential.
If you have a sub(s), you can roll off the Stages at 80 hertz & make life much easier for the amp(s) driving the Stages.
I had the Mini Grand system with the Mini Dax. I had great results with Pass Aleph 2s on the Stages, and an Aragon 4004MKII on the subs.
If you have just the subs & no crossover, you can use filters like Vandersteen sells, to roll off the Stages.

Pass Labs is a great choice, but not in your budget. A old Threshold would be perfect. Something that might not be a conventional recommendation, but was surprising good for the money is the Sunfire amps. They are powerful and high current. At used prices, you can always sell w/o a loss. I've heard them drive plenty of tough loads.
Something else is a BATvk500, in your range more or less. Cheers,

Spencer

Jeff Rowland Model 5 is your perfect match. Currently listed on Audiogon for $1600.

Try older Classe'Audio. DR8, DR9, Fifteen, or Twenty-Five.
All great amps with plenty of current drive. Jason Bloom of Apogee used to demonstrate the Stage at audio shows with the DR8. Threshold S Series amps like S/200, S/300, or S/500 would work fine too. Best Apogee demo I ever heard was Apogee Duetta Signature driven by Threshold SA4e at Bay Area Audio show back in 1989. I never forgot the magic. Threshold SA4e is essentially unobtainable these days but it was one of the all time great Nelson Pass designs.