Best Amp to drive my Apogee Stages?

I had the Stages for a brief period 25 years ago. Cheaply built overrated speaker. I was driving them with a Levinson 23...the 23 always got hot a shut off, and I blew more tweeter/midrange ribbons than I can count. Maybe they were defective, I dunno, maybe both the 23 and Stages were defective? Anyway, terrible experience, and I didn't even bother to sell them. I took them right to the dumpster! lol.

SUNFIRE 300x2....with "Scintilla Mod"

4x Leak TL/12 Plus. 12 Watts/amp. Loud, tight, spatially accurate, subtle, sweet as... Go figure. Yep, I'm running my Mini-Grands on around 25Wpc (plus a couple of kW's for the 'subs'). My friends and I can assure you that the sound is scarily real. The system produces any sound, realistcally IN 3D+!
I have had no reliability problems-Krell take note. These British 50+ year old classics cook without cooking (if you know what I mean?). Many parties cranking wild sounds at party-level, then some sweet-as Laura Marling for the afternoon after. Flawless unless you REALLY want to vapourize ribbons...?

I realize this thread is fairly old and I have gotten some wonderful responses already, but I looking to receive some more feedback.

I am thinking about buying a Threshold amp and there are currently 2 on Audiogon for $800. There is an older Threshold 400A (100W) versus a newer SA/3 (50W). Which of these amps would do a better job for my Apogee Stages?

Thank you for any and all responses.

LitL

I heard the KSA 100 and 250 driving systems elsewhere. There has been a whole lot of improvement here, and a lot of developments with audiophiles I know over the last 3 years.

Well if its any consulation, I just setup an old vintage system using Duetta Sigs driven by a single KSA 250s A Krell 250 upgrade) driven directly by a Wadia 6 and the sound was phenomenal. I also have had Calipers in the past but never Stages. Due to a recent move I have been trying to decide what is going to work best in this new abode. Main room is 18w x 28d and has a massive vaulted ceiling in which the system would sit at a wall where the slope meets fortunately. (built in band shell!) After this Duetta run, I will haul in a pair of Divas and bi-amp them with the other 250. Hopefully they will not be too big and "load" the room. However I have seen some members systems here where the speakers seem bigger than the room!

I would try a KSA 150 with your Stage if you were to remain in the Krell lineup. I heard a friends setup that used one with Stages and it sounded fantastic...one here on AG for 1500 I think right now.

Vince, I never mentioned the KSA 100 or my opinion of its performance. In fact, I have never heard the amp in any system. Please do me a favor and refrain from agreeing or disagreeing with whatever you THINK I said.

Don, I agreed with what you said, and added my 2 c. No quote was made. I have my Scintillas beating the band here (hint).

The Music in the video is a Telarc classical cd with explosive dynamics...a shotgun blast to be exact!

Still...I does show what can happen

Dave

Dave,

Thank you for posting the video. That demonstrates what I was talking about. Imagine how the amplifier would have responded if the high level had been sustained instead of abruptly terminated.

Some very good points about amp headroom, and dynamics. Here is a short video (watch the needle nearly peg on the Krell Kas-2 amp).

This is on the Stage bass panel only (80hz-700hz)...several other speakers handle the freq's above and below this range, and have their own dedicated amps.

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k280/sogood51/?action=view¤t=Krell_KAS-2.flv

Dave

Muralman1,

Please don't quote me on things I did NOT say.

like my neighbor, Don S. says, The KSA 100 will give a pleasant sound with decent detail retrieval. When you think you can afford it, there are much better alternatives.

LitL:

In earlier version there was no difference. The original Stage stand was replaced by the subwoofer panel for the Minigrand. The Stage would just atop the subwoofer panel just like it did on the stand. My Minigrand Stages were no different from the other subwoofer-less Stages that I owned. personally, I do not care about the subwoofer panel so much.

However, I have seen slighlt different look of the Stage that came with later versions of the Minigrand. I do not know if there was any sonic difference though. Probably not.

LitL:

If you or your dad are in DFW area, drop me an email and we will setup a listening session at my place. I think I have a good collection of CD and Vinyl but bring your own too.

Krell KSA-100 is a good amp. I am not sure if re-capping is necessary. May be 20 more years later or it is just a hype

The latter built Stage, and MiniGrand Stage are pretty much the same...the MiniGrand with a nicer looking cover, AFAIK. (and of course the expensive dedicated crossover, and two subwoofers)

The MiniGrand bass extends to around 25hz with the subwoofers...right there with the Duetta Signature.

Dave

Hello Dave/All,
Are there any sound differences between the original Apogee stages vs. the mini-grand (top portion) speakers? Besides age of course. I do know that the build is slightly different. Is that as far as it goes or it there more to it?
-LitL

I ran my Stage for a while as a Stage-etta...Stage/Duetta. The Stage reproducing highs and mids, along with upper bass...and the Duetta bass panel handling bass from around 80hz-25hz. (The mix of the two sounded outstanding!).

My Stage are the MiniGrands...but the Duetta Signature bass, is better sounding than the MiniGrand subwoofers.

Sadly, one of my Stage now has the dreaded Apogee bass panal BUZZZZZZZ...so the good one is now working as my center channel speaker.

Dave

I have apogee centaur minors and drive it with Krell KSA 80. i have an audio note pre amp so i think i have the right blend of tubes and power. i then went and bought a pair of Krell KMA 160's (the mono blocks) but still haven't tried it out due to renovations and the kids taking up all my time.

also added a second REL sub so system is looking up would have loved to have the Stages though - have heard them a few times and they are special.

Hey Gallant_diva. 144 tubes must light up (and warm up) your listening room quite well. That is amazing and fun. My Dad worked for Ampex back in the 60's, but he went to solid state when he bought his Apogee Studio Array back in the mid 90's (when those were the latest from Jason Bloom). He had never heard either the Fullrange nor the Divas until about 1 year ago. It was a teriffic day indeed.

I will keep looking for the Krell KSA-100. That seems like a perfect option for me. If I do find one I have a certified Krell Technician under my belt who can re-cap an one of these older Krell amplifiers for me.

I would love meet you and come listen to some music with you some day? Good recordings seem very hard to find so if you have any vinyl suggestions (any genre) I am open.

LitL

LitL: You made another very important point, that is a truly outstanding and revealing system can expose all the drawbacks of a poor recording. That is the case with THE Apogee. I fully concur. So the solution is do not play poor recording on it!! Garbage in, garbage out. The speaker is so ruthless that it conceals nothing. On top of that if your electronics is also of the same calibre, you are asking for more trouble,

The Stage in contrast is more forgiving, which can be a blessing sometimes. Glad to know you also own Stages. By the way, I have also listened to the Stage with a Krell KSA-100 for quite some time and boy do they sound good with a Krell also.

My fullrange is driven by all tubes. Yeap, all tubes. To my knowlege I am the only person on the planet who is driving this speaker with all tubes. Right now the system is bi-amped with TRL GT-800 at the bottom and TRL GT-400 at the top, collectively using 144 tubes.

My system is given here at A'gon:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vaslt&1066703453

See details.

Any of the Evolutions from Krell should do the job.

My only 1 issue with my only listening experience with THE Apogee was the way it highlighted the flaws in every recording I listened to. It was so defined that I could not play any of todays music due to the limited digital range of the recordings. Some were worse than others, but it made me realize how important the recording process is when you are any kind of Audiophile. I really consider myself an audio enthusiast: meaning just a guy who loves listening to any genre of music, but not very technical at the same time. But BOY, when I heard a good recording nothing could touch what I had as a reference before that experience.

As far as my Stages, I have only driven them with my Krell KAV-300i so far. I can't wait to experience them with an amplifier that matches them correctly. I sure do know what you are referring to with the vocals. They are magic for sure.

By the way what do you drive the Fullrange with? It seems like you need some heavy duty fire power for those.

-LitL

Good comment, Lil. I love to engage in such discussions. I own two Fullranges and I agree that it is one of finest speakers ever made. It has got everything: might, power, authority, finesse, romance, subtlety, you name it. However, I have improved it further and I know I am speaking for myself and for my taste.However, the Stage has something that none of the other Apogees have, and that is some magic in the midrange which gives a greater feeling of the singer or instrument being present there. One reason for that could be the Mylar backed ribbon instead of the regular kapton or pure ribbon (but shadowed by transformers). Another reason is the crossover. These factors combined add something into the Stage that is hard to describe in words. Call it audio chemistry :) I never had that feeling with the Diva or other Apogees - certain scintillas come very close though. Now keep in mind that the Fullrange in contrast has its own magic and does not seem to miss anything, and the differences are rather minuet. But if I am listening to vocals only I do not want to stop if it is coming from the Stage.

Gallant_diva:
I have never heard anything finer than the Apogee Fullrange. Why play with stages when you have the REAL thing?

-LIL

Rrog: My guess is that the Manely should mate well with the Stage.

I am sorry I do not recall our conversation. Apologies. Drop me an email if you have any specific question. With regard to building speakers, I did not build any per se but I moded several Apogees. Two noteworthy efforts are the "Centaur-Fullrange" which combine the Fullrange woofer with Centaur-Major mid/tw ribbon to make a "new" speaker. This remains my main speaker even though these days I am listening to the original Fullrange.

The second project, which shows my love for the Stage, was to create a "butterfly", that is stacked Stages. Each side contains two Stages with the top one upside down such that the Mid/high tweeters of the two Stages are aligned vertically. That project required some more efforts and crossover mod and I abandoned the idea as the bass was not better than that of the Fullrange. I might try it again though when my mod bug starts biting me again.

I love the sound of my (old but revised) Threshold S/300 on my Apogees.

The H2O 100 costs $2k. It will run the Stage with all the control a high power amp gives it. You can get all the tube warmth, and depth separation by choosing another component with tubes. I just have tubes in my CD player, and that is what determines the sound.

www.iceh2oaudio.com/images/H20...

Loveitloud, The KST 100 is a lower priced amplifier and it is not the quality of the KSA series amplifiers by Krell which were made during the same time.

Gallant_diva, I get the point.

The amplifier in question is a Manley Stingray. I think it meets the quality requirements of the Stage. It is an early Stingray rated at 50wpc.

Also, I spoke with you years ago when I was in the business. You mentioned you were doing something with electrostatic speakers. I thought you said you were building them. Did you give that up?

Whoa,
It has been crazy-fun to read all of your postings. I have been enjoying the comments and opinions so much. And, I have researched many of these ideas.

I still have not made an amplifier purchase due to my 4 month old daughter joining Day Care. With 2 kids in Day Care now I am looking at around $3K/mo.

Recently I have run into a Krell KST-100 amplifier ($750) which seems like it would drive the Stages just fine, but after reading all of these postings I might think about saving more money to get more. I really want to be able to experiment and listen to some of these great quality amplifiers to get more of a reference sound. My Dad owns a Levinson, but he will not let me take it out of his house. I can't blame him for that.

Does anybody have an opinion on the sound differences between mono block amplifiers versus a stereo amp? Financially it seems like I can get more of a quality amp. with 2-channel, but reading past Stereophile articles has brought my attention to the old B&K M-200 as well as the Adcom 565 mono blocks.

Thank you all for participating in this thread. Keep on writing.

LoveItLoud

Rrog: So my answer is even though you may have a 50 WPC amp that can drive the speaker, then so what? The fine detail and quality of the Stage requires a fine quality amp. So for a 50 WPC, numbers may not matter, quality does. And Even though the Stage is more flexible than other Apogees, it will will not work well with poor-quality 50wpc.

Hope you get the point. -)

So the best is to try it out and you be the judge. Do report it here how it went.

Gallant_diva, I'm still a little confused after reading Leo's statement again. He states a 50 watt receiver may drive the speakers well. His "so what" is in regards to quality.

"You might find a good receiver of, say, 50 watts/channel output that drives the speakers well, but so what? I think that the fine detail and the quality of the Stage really demand a truly fine quality amplifier. Power isn't the issue here. Quality is. So although the Stage is more widely compatible than previous Apogees we don't condone the use of poor-quality ancillaries anywhere in the chain."

Burmester 956 MK2

With best regards,
Rocco

Rrog: As sogood51 says, 50 WPCs can drive but may be not enough load and may lack dyanmics. When we says power matters (and not matters) it is all relative. The Stage is an easier load as Leo was saying but still need good enough power.

It is not just about SPL. It is about headroom, dynamics, and PRAT. I have had Stages/Mini Grands for 18 years with different amps. I never heard the panels come alive until I put serious power on them. I am NOT talking about 250 watts into 4 ohms. I am talking about 500 or more. If someone has not heard Stage speakers with serious power from amplifiers that have good control I am not sure they are aware of what the speakers are capable of. That is my opinion based upon my actual experience.

Again I am not talking about SPL because the speakers do have a maximum SPL that no amount of power can exceed. In fact, it is possible to have too much power. I only listen slightly louder now than I did with lower power amps but the dynamics and realism are dramatically improved and even at low volume the detail and PRAT is improved although that may not be a function of power, just a different amp.

Please note: I am talking about SS power. I do not have enough experience to comment on tube amps and power requirements for Stage speakers.

I have Stage and Duetta Signature...I can run them both to very good SPL's with my Rogue Audio M-120 Magnum tube amps (120 watts each).

I've also used, or heard many solid state amps: BAT VK-500, Krell Ksa-250, Pass Labs 150, Krell Kav-500, Outlaw Audio 755, and Onkyo M-504.

None of these amps has a problem driving the Apogee speakers to sane SPL's.

50 watts will drive the Stage, but not very loud?....although maybe loud enough for some people.

Dave

Thank you for clearing that up. Do you think I can run the Stages with 50 watts?

Rrog: Leo is also saying that the Stage impedence will not be problem, which is what I also said. However, you said "while this may not be a problem for your monster tube amplifiers it can be a problem for other amps"

I do not think it will be a problem as any amp with 100 WPC or so will drive the Stage well.

Rrog: I do not agree with you because you need to re-read the context of my statement, yours and Leo's.

First, you were putting the Stage with all Apogees and saying power does not matter. That needs some clarification.

Second, I said power does matter for Apogees (which means Apogees in general). Then I said **in the case of the Stage**, the impedance and sensitivity is benign and hence less power will suffice (which means *for Stage* power is less of an issue). I also said *for the Stage* more power will not help, which is what Leo is saying. To further emphasize this point, I said for *other Apogees* you will need power.

Leo, my hero, is talking about the Stage, emphasizing its easy load and mentioning exactly what I said, that is less power *for Stage*. He brought up the power issue (because for other Apogees, power is an associated issue) and stressed that Stage is an exception.

Finally, it appears that you think all Apogees have low impedance. In reality, only the Scintilla has one ohm impedance and the Fullrange woofer has 2 ohm if driven without the transformer, while the rest of the Apogees have close to 4 ohm with occasional dips to 3.

The Stage was one of the later speakers made by Apogee Acoustics, and in my opinion pushed the quality envelop further, combining most of the lessons that Apogees engineers had learnt. In my book, it is the best sounding Apogee (based on midrange, highs and transparency) and requiring the least amount of power. Other Apogees however outperform the Stage in other areas.

Hope that helps.

Gallant_diva, So, does that mean you agree with me?

I wrote "The amount of watts is not the issue".

You wrote "In fact, the amount of watts is the issue".

Leo Spiegel, your hero, wrote "Power isn't the issue here".

I have Apogee Slant-6. I had Adcom GFA 200, Classe CA 100, Krell KSA 50S previously, and use Conrad Johnson Premier 11A now. The CJ has more "you are there" and wholeness to the sound and expansive soundstage. Really musical and tactile. You can hear the vibration from the throat and the moistness of the teeth when listening to vocals. The best tweak was using RCA clear tops on the 6FQ7 driver tubes. My preamp is Wright Sound WPL 100A, his top of the line single chassis (with in board phono). I have one of three made. George Wright was from Kent, Washington. He died last year. His preamps are the biggest bang for the buck ever, if you can overlook the exterior aesthetics. This preamp replaced CJ PV 12A. the system sounds like it has a shot of 30 extra watts of power and drive, oomph, depth and clarity.
Since your speakers are fully ribbon, I would try the Classe CA 100. It is rated at 100 watts per channel at 8 ohms, 150 at 4 ohm. It is cheap on used market. It sounds way more musical than the expensive current crop of Classe amps. It has incredible bass, especially for its power rating. The amp sound and play twice as loud than a 200 watt (solid state) Audio Research amp.
Good Luck.
Greg
P.S. I am using JPS Labs superconductor interconnects. Very transparent, but very rigid. I heard at least 3 more feet of soundstage depth with these interconnects replacing the "junk" Straightwire Maestro.

One of my heroes in audio is Leo Spiegel, the genius at Apogee acoustics who designed the Fullrange ribbon spakers.

In an interview in July 1990, he said:
"In the case of the Stage, we set out to make a smaller loudspeaker, still with a good, accurate sound but with higher efficiency than our previous designs so that it could be employed successfully in a wider range of systems. 'The way I set out to achieve this was by concentrating the amount of ribbon conductor in the magnetic field. A small improvement was also made to the magnet arrays too, but the primary change was to the woofer and tweeter diaphragms, which have a conductor on both front and back of the transducer. Another important, change was to the cuts which transform the bass unit diaphragm into ribbons. The sinusoidal cuts are only practical with the photo etching process used for a relatively high volume model like the Stage since the process will cope with, any arbitrary shape of cut. The smaller volume models are cut by band, so only straight line cuts are feasible. 'The electrical crossover point is about 350Hz, but the effective acoustic crossover point is around 600 to 700Hz as the electrical network is only one element of the transfer function and the characteristics of the ribbon have an effect here too. The blending of the woofer into the midrange/treble ribbon is very gentle. Every time we try a very sharp cutoff, you can bear the sound of the two units as two quite separate entities. It has been the same with everything we have worked with. You can always say 'here's the woofer' and 'here's the mid/treble tweeter'. But gentle crossover slopes demand good overlap in the frequency response, or the technique doesn't work, the units must be well behaved if such slopes are to work successfully".

"The Stage has a very smooth impedance and phase response, especially in the midband and tweeter region which has incredibly smooth group delay characteristics. In this way we can achieve depth and imaging. 'The idea is that you should be able to shut your eyes and sense locations and see the orchestra. We have worked very bard to achieve this. If it doesn't do this, it isn't one of ours. You might find a good receiver of, say, 50 watts/channel output that drives the speakers well, but so what? I think that the fine detail and the quality of the Stage really demand a truly fine quality amplifier. Power isn't the issue here. Quality is. So although the Stage is more widely compatible than previous Apogees we don't condone the use of poor-quality ancillaries anywhere in the chain."

The Stage actually goes below 4 ohms and while this may not be a problem for your monster tube amplifiers it can be a problem for other amps. However, the point I was trying to make is that an amplifier's sound quality will vary depending on the load it is driving regardless of the amplifier's power rating. Even your tube amplifiers would be happier if they were driving a speaker with an 8 ohm load.
BTW, whatever happened to the electrostics speakers you were building?

In fact, the amount of watts is the issue. The impedence of Apogees speakers, barring the Scintilla, is 4 ohms. So most amplifiers can handle that. It is their low sensitivity that precludes most amps because they will not have the watts to run the speakers at decent sound pressure level.

In the case of the Stage, the sensitivity is a bit higher than other Apogees and also the spaker itself will not play very very loud (althoug it is good enough for most music except very loud rock or large orchestral music). Therefore, a 100-150 WPC good tube will drive it very well to the **Stage's maximum cability**. Having 400-500 WPC will not help any further although will not hurt either.

In the case of other Apogees, a 100-150 WPC *can* drive the speaker for low volume (e.g., vocals) but not for obtaining a good sound pressure level. Hence you will need more power.

The amount of watts is not the issue. It is the load the amplifier has to deal with. True, a higher quality amplifier will sound better, but the Apogee is a hard speaker to drive and it is the load that degrades the sound of the amplifier.

will do a better job than a weak one ... I should have added

in this case

Clavil, How do you know when you have a speaker controlled "perfectly"?
The truth is you may never hear the true potential of a speaker like the Apogee. Because this is a hard speaker to drive there is no amplifier happy with the Apogee load therefore any amplifier connected to this type of speaker will never sound it's best.

than let's replace perfectly by best possible ;-)
obviously, a strong and stable amplifier at low impedance and with a high damping factor will do a better job than a weak one, and most of tubes or class A ...

considering the budget of our friend your suggestion choice of the Rowland 5 is good one and I am sure he will notice a big improvement

once again: I have been driving my Infinity for 14 years with an David Belles OCM (200 watts) + Treshold pre ... the day I tried Rowland (1000 Watt into 4 Ohms and Damping Factor 1000 at 1 kHz I was just schocked ... I couldn't believe my ears !

I discovered after 14 years how my Infinty can sound !!

Darkmoebius: I will shoot you an email how to place the Divas. In order not to disturb this thread, email me privately please your room dimensions.

Gallant_diva,

Your system honestly inspired me to seriously look into Apogees, especially a pair of Divas. My next system upgrade is going to be built around them. I just need to move some place with a big enough room, first.