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If it had a happy ending, that's good enough for me. Nobody had me in a choke hold forcing me to try to help. |
It's too bad this thread ended on a sour note. These 10 pages are full of well intentioned good advice. So many concerned Agoners willing to do research such as checking specs, reading white papers and the like. With such a perplexing problem the OP had, there needed to be some comic relief thrown in.
Hopefully Fishing now has a system he can enjoy. |
guys,
I'm sorry if I came across terse and offensive.
The point I was trying to make was that the OP needed help, not humor to solve his problem. I realize everyone here is friendly and all, but when you're the guy suffering, answers are what you need, not jokes. I've been there, still am in many ways and use other forums that are more instructive when I have a problem.
I was offering an obscure suggestion (one driver out of phase) because I've heard the effect at a friend's house. We tried everything and nothing helped. I don't know what prompted him to check the internal wiring of the speaker cabinet, but once corrected, all was well.
And yes, it makes sense that the listener, no matter how well trained his ear was would only notice the problem after about an hour. That's about how long it takes for your ears to adjust. Your eye's have to adjust to darkness, your ears have to adjust to volume. It's in your brain, what else can I say. I remember back in the 70's everyone thought Infinity speakers were the bomb because they were bright and sounded so clear when first heard. But after an hour, listener's fatigue set in and they didn't sound so good.
If you think about wave cancellation and augmentation, it's very easy to imagine that the way the music is mixed and seating position have a great affect on your perception.
Try it for yourself, reverse one speaker's phase and play something recorded in mono. As you move around the room, the sound just disappears as you hit that spot near the middle where the sound waves cancel. It's very cool. Even if the recording is in stereo, the bass or drums may be on both channels (effectively Mono), so cancellation can occur.
Again, very sorry to come off terse, I was really only trying to help. If you've been in the same situation as the OP, the last thing you want to hear is jokes. I've been there and would rather get it fixed than joke.
I mean, look at the length of this thread, ten pages and still going. With the other forums I've been on, it's problem solved, thank you. Next question. That's why I hardly visit this site anymore. But you guys are great, and I've made friends here. I was just trying to help, just too serious I guess.
Rich |
"Begin at the beginning", the King said, very gravely, "and go on till you come to the end: then stop". |
Csontos, Ok, I'll bite. What did you learn? |
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Oh I learned something alright. Early on. |
Another lesson learned for me was when something is not going right, keep things as simple as possible. For example, don't attempt to bi-wire right out of the gate. Audiophiles (including myself) tend to make things more complicated over time.
WHen something goes wrong, you have to isolate the problem. That's harder to do as the system configuration becomes more complex. The best approach may be to stip things back down to a minimum, and regression test from there. That may still often require having spare pieces around to swap in and out for comparison when needed. |
For me it reminded me of the the need to make sure fundamentals (like proper wiring) are correct and not assume that just because someone does not like what they hear, that it is necessarily the equipment's fault. I knew all of that already I suppose but this was a good reminder to sometimes expect the unexpected. |
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Even now, I am not quite sure the bi-wiring was done in a harmful way, but it was clearly ill advised and increased the chances of doing it wrong and experiencing problems as a result.
There was so much going on at the OPs end that it was very hard to keep track of what the current state of his system at any particular time was. Not a good case study for how to efficiently and systematically resolve a problem with ones stereo, though still an interesting case study to learn from nonetheless.
Its always hard to diagnose a problem that one (other than OP and his crew) cannot actually hear. Internet threads are always limited that way, not the most effective tool alone for sure. Its a game one plays by choice realizing the limitations I suppose but with the hope that things will work out still in the end faster than they might otherwise. |
"But why didn't it end a long time ago? "
I could be wrong but I do not recall the ill advised attempt to bi-wire the speakers from a single source amplifier ever coming up until late in the game, after the issue had apparently been addressed already. That would have been a good red flag early on. Not sure how/why that did not come up earlier? In lieu of that, I think we were all grasping at straws in lieu of that key fact.
Any lessons learned? What might have brought this to a happy conclusion quicker? |
"The spirit of assistance was strong in this thread."
But why didn't it end a long time ago? |
"The spirit of assistance was strong in this thread."
Oh, yeah, that too!
Luckily, the force was with us I suppose.... |
The spirit of assistance was strong in this thread. |
Yes. But in the case of this thread, I would say it's a seller's market;) |
"This thread as a whole is a great example of audiophiles and audiophile forums at their best. A very special thread indeed. "
You mean as an example of how audiophiles tend to obsess on fixing their sound based on limited facts and thus spend vast amounts of time and money in the process? :^) |
Heyraz, I can understand how you might take Csontos' post the wrong way taken out of context, but in context it was actually a harmless joke.
This thread as a whole is a great example of audiophiles and audiophile forums at their best. A very special thread indeed. |
Heyraz, Do you think one woofer out of phase would only be noticeable after one hour of listening day after day?
Csontos' joke is necessary to keep things light. We need more light hearted comments like his to make the forum enjoyable. Afterall, we are not at work here. This is something we do for fun, right? |
Sorry, couldn't help it. If it's any consolation, it wasn't meant for you. You should maybe read the whole thread. You might get a kick out of it:) |
Are you?
Unnecessary. Comments like that are the reason I rarely look at this site.
BTW-Only one woofer was out of phase in my friend's system. The other speaker in the cabinet was in phase.
Why does it take time to perceive any difference? That could be due to musical content and aural acclimation. It took a while for me to notice the drop off at my friend's house depending on the musical mix, seating position, and volume level. Consider also that perfect wave cancellation can only occur with monaural material, so the musical mix plays a big factor in the listener's perception.
One of the reasons the old preamps had a mono switch was to help set the azimuth when mounting a phono cartridge. Wire one channel of the cartridge or speakers out of phase, place the preamp in mono and adjust the cartridge's azimuth till the bass response seemed minimal. This procedure works on the principle that wave cancellation can only occur when both channels are in phase, which can only occur when the cartridge is properly aligned. After the alignment procedure, the speaker or cartridge was restored to it's proper phase and the preamp was returned to stereo operation. |
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Are your speakers in phase? Are the cables in phase. Is there an inverting switch somewhere
Yes/Yes/NO |
Are your speakers in phase? Are the cables in phase. Is there an inverting switch somewhere?
I didn't read through the entire thread but this is exactly what happened to a friend of mine. He opened the cabinets and found one of the woofers had the polarity reversed. Damnedest thing I ever heard, but it made sense after we put all of the clues together-our position in the room, the musical content.
It was one of those unexpected issues, if you know what I mean. He thought outside of the box (or inside, in this case). I would have never suspected the woofers came from the factory wired in reverse.
It was a simple case of wave cancellation.
(Sorry if this was discussed, I didn't feel like reading 10 pages of this thread).
Rich |
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Actually, what he said he did with the interconnects was to reverse channels, not phase. He didn't say anything about also reversing channels with the speaker cables, so the right channel is apparently being reproduced by the left speaker, and vice versa.
Best regards,
-- Al |
But he also said he reversed the phase on the interconnect |
But if the the AQs were miswired, it shouldn't take an hour for the bass to go south. Yet I still don't think there is/was anything wrong with either the MF or the PSBs. |
06-28-13: Mapman
...but gotta wonder what the original MF amp would sound like now.....
Mapman (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread) Agreed...I think the MF M6i is a GREAT int amp. Definitely a bit more organic sounding than my Accustic Arts which is more dynamic, quick, and clear. |
...but gotta wonder what the original MF amp would sound like now..... |
Well, suffice it to say that any biwiring complicates things with more ways to get it wrong than right and results would not be good. |
Doesn't seem like he was out of phase, just backwards and upside down, or something like that. Though his explanation continues to be hard to decipher. |
I'm still wondering, if the issue was a simple out of phase speaker connection or worse due to attempt to bi-wire the speakers from a single source amp incorrectly and that actually caused more deterioration over time? I'm suspecting the latter would be more impactful, though out of phase wiring alone would impact bass at all times.
I do not recall the biwiring attempt being mentioned early on in this thread but maybe I missed it? That would have been useful info! Way more problematic and likely than any amp overheating due to load over time in a major way, though that could certainly happen.
Oh well. Glad the facts came out eventually anyhow.
If the biwiring was mentioned early on and I missed it, I will waive my consulting fee. Otherwise, I will be charging more interest now!!!! :^) |
Mu guess is that if you were to hook up your old MF integrated you will have no further problems with your bass. I'm sure the miswiring was the culprit (or, at least, that the MF wasn't). At any rate, a happy ending, it seems. |
Accustic Arts email
paul@usatubeaudio.com
888 593-8477
Harwil corp.distributer |
Does Accustic Arts have distribution in the US? I guess it must, but I can't seem to identify it. |
Yay, I detect a happy customer.
Wait till he see's the high priced consulting bills we're all about to send him.....
Especially Al's! |
Accustic Arts/psb/sony/rega photo:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vdone&1372392821&view |
Glad you like the Power 1. I really like mine as well. I may consider getting the MK 3 some day for its headphone amp capability. Have you had a chance to try it out yet? |
All I know is the new amp is working terrific,best I ever heard.May have misconnected speakers previously but not certain.
Also I reversed interconnects meaning left out of the cd player into right of the amp.Seemed to make every thing solid.
I personally thing this amp has control & "authority" to keep the speakers working properly.When the bass came in after 20 hrs.break in,it has stayed for entire listning session of 2+ hours this evening.
Acoustic Arts Power 1,mk 3 integrated amp(200w into 4ohm).Excellent customer support
AL,PSB biwire connections are top 2 treble/bottom 2 bass
I may have revered something but not sure. |
I use similar AUdioquest cv6 wires with the battery powered DBS system. I doubt that is an issue. It's effects are nil to most marginal at best. Bass should be unaffected no matter what. |
JJ offered a clever theory, but looking at the description and photos of the Comet at the AQ site I don't see anything suggesting that the gauge of the treble wiring is extremely thin, Don't know how clever it was but after 454 posts from lots of experts I can only come up with what are obviously long "reachs" for a possible explanation for the bass issue. I agree with Al that the wire that "biased towards high frequency finesse" does not look thin enough to be a problem however I am not well versed in the AQ wire topology or how the battery bias may be working if hooked up wrong. Also I came to the same conclusion, now that I know the cable, is that the only miswire that should still work should effect the bass from the start, not change with playing time. Also there has been some discussion of the PSB's having a low impedance. I have not seen a graph but if that dip is in the bass range it would, IIUC, not take to much of an increase in wire resistance to effect the damping factor. IMO, from the recordings that were sent out, it is not a quantity of bass issue it is the quality of the bass that changes. Again, a way out theory, but without physically seeing the internal construction of the speaker wire it's all I got at the moment. |
I think you've all got your speaker wires crossed! |
ALso note that there is no reason to biwire from a single amp to multiple speaker connections for biwiring. It may work fine if done right but more chance for error. Just make sure jumper on speakers between reds/+s and other jumper between blacks/-s is in place and conect to speakers in phase properly just once. |
If speakers were connected out of phase, bass would be impacted from the get go, not more so over time. That could have just been a perception that it got worse over time. Whatever. If it sounds good now, take a note on how to wire correctly so you can do it again if needed. Reds to + and blacks to - in all connections from amp and into speakers should do it! |
Fishing, I still find myself uncertain of the meaning of your description of the connections. I think you are saying (correct me if I'm wrong) that what you WERE doing was:
1)Connecting the "red treble" banana plug of the cable to the red binding post of the high frequency part of the speaker.
2)Connecting the "black treble" banana plug of the cable to the black binding post of the low frequency part of the speaker.
3)Connecting the "red bass" banana plug of the cable to the red binding post of the low frequency part of the speaker.
4)Connecting the "black bass" banana plug of the cable to the black binding post of the high frequency part of the speaker.
In other words, you were interchanging the connections of the two black banana plugs at the speaker end of the cable.
If that is correct, like Dan (Drubin) I don't see how that would cause the bass to be fine for an hour or so, and then mostly disappear. JJ offered a clever theory, but looking at the description and photos of the Comet at the AQ site I don't see anything suggesting that the gauge of the treble wiring is extremely thin, which it would have to be for a resistance rise due to heating to become significant.
Regards,
-- Al |
From the AQ website: Comet is an exceptional Single-Biwire cable. When the halves are separated at the speaker end, the double quad-helix design turns Comet into a true double-biwire set thanks to the magnetic autonomy of each quad-helix. On its own, one quad would be a little light-weight in performance as it is biased towards treble finesse. The other quad is more forcefully biased toward the bass. Together they form a completely optimized full range design, but when separated the Comet becomes a maximum performance double-biwire in a single cable. Whatever that means. |
Audioquest Comet biwire speaker cable
Bananas |
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