Balanced Interconnect Recommendations

If they're good to record with they're good to playback with.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/GoldStu02--mogami-gold-studio-microphone-cable-2-foot-xlr-xl...

Instead of a theoretical debate about the pro’s & con’s of XLR vs RCA (AES48, pin 1 problems, were the f&*^*k to connect the shield, differential circuit design etc... bla bla bla), I would stick to the topic. Sometimes it looks like audiophiles around here are listening more with a calculator instead of their ears.

My tips for good XLR’s with a wide soundstage are Townshend F1, Black Cat Silver Lupo III, Nordost Norse 2 series. Maybe Tellurium Q Silver II or Audience 24SX.

Skimmed through the previous post and don’t recall the mention of balance circuit will drop the noise floor by 3db which I believe is because it does not tie the ground to the chassis so you’re picking up less noise; those that are techy I’m sure will chime in and explain better.

Ideally the interconnected components will connect the shield of a balanced cable to chassis, which allows the shield to act as an extension of the shielding provided for the circuitry in each component by the component’s chassis.

However some and perhaps many designs connect the shield of a balanced cable to their internal circuit ground instead. (In a good design circuit ground and chassis will not be connected directly together; instead a resistor is often used to connect them together, although there are other approaches that can also work well).

Connection of the shield of a balanced cable to circuit ground within a component, rather than to chassis, can be conducive to ground loop-related noise. See the following excellent paper, as well as item 2 in my first post above:

https://www.ranecommercial.com/kb_article.php?article=2107

So this is one of many ways (I mentioned others in my initial post in the thread) in which the balanced vs. unbalanced question is dependent on the designs of the specific components that are being connected.  "Dependent" in ways that often have little if any predictability.

Regards,
-- Al

Deep and wide soundstage, a cable that just gets out of the way and doesn’t draw attention to itself I’d suggest WyWires. I was a big fan of silver conductor for years, owned and dropped it and went back to copper after I went to WyWires.
Skimmed through the previous post and don’t recall the mention of balance circuit will drop the noise floor by 3db which I believe is because it does not tie the ground to the chassis so you’re picking up less noise; those that are techy I’m sure will chime in and explain better.

I run balance on several components and definitely feel micro detail has improved significantly as I can listen to lower levels and still tap my toes... I’m definitely listening to lower levels as my system has become more resolved or refined. You will not know until you try balance on your own system. Canare gets tossed out a lot lately here and for good reason as it’s great wire for the money; actually it’s stupid cheap and worth an evaluation as you might be glad you did as it will save you a ton of money. It can be purchased about anywhere but mentioned a lot at Blue Jeans Cable. Very flexible cable used primarily in studios and live venues.

https://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/shopbycable/L4E6S.htm

Yes, the Isis is fully balanced

The Isis is fully balanced though correct?

@akg_ca I too have the Isis and was wondering if you could describe the sonic differences you heard between using rca’s and xlr’s from the Isis into the Osiris. Thanks so much 

Real life experiences ...
I have the REGA OSIRIS integrated amp and the REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/ dac.

(1) REGA itself recommends balanced XLR interconnects between them . I stress-tested
their manual Recommendations with shoot-outs between high-end RCAs versus XLRs ....in my shootouts, REGA was right .

(2) In direct cable bake-offs in MY system (emphasis added ...) against numerous high-end brands, NORDOST FREY XLRs were best of breed at their price points.

(3) Completing the NORDOST cables array with NORDOST FREY shotgunned speaker cables and matched jumpers was a further audio performance improvement.

I would like an eventual further move up to NORDOST VALHALLAs , but budgets are always a limiting factor.

highly recommended .

@almarg   The reason that balanced lines are going to be more resistant to noise is due to common-mode rejection so I assumed (incorrectly) that's what was underlying your points.  And yes, you referred to common mode rejection exactly in the way I meant as well.

Perhaps someone(s) on this forum who is using unbalanced circuits could do a comparison with RCA vs XLR IC to see if it makes a sound quality improvement in their system. My main system is fully balanced from input to output and I use XLR's only due to that topology.  My second system uses an integrated amp...otherwise I'd volunteer!

So your contention is that the benefit of common-mode rejection inherent to an XLR connection may provide an advantage over single-ended connections in some cases?

No, that is not what I was saying.

By "common mode rejection" I assume you are referring to rejection of common mode noise, i.e., noise that is picked up equally in the two signal conductors of a balanced cable, which can therefore be rejected or at least attenuated by a balanced receiver circuit.

But note that none of the seven factors I referred to have anything to do with that, except perhaps to some extent in the case of number 6.

Regards,
-- Al

@almarg   So your contention is that the benefit of common-mode rejection inherent to an XLR connection may provide an advantage over single-ended connections in some cases?  I'm not sure common-mode rejection is the most important factor to be weighing when selecting cables but I can't disagree with you 100% either (only 99.9% ;-)).  For instance if you're talking about a short length and a low-gain signal then a single-ended circuit may very well outperform balanced regardless of common-mode rejection.  This discussion feels more theoretical than practical and it sounds like we both agree that the vast majority of the time the user is much better off in terms of both cost and performance to only go with XLR when engaged with  fully balanced circuit.  And agreed, if you don't mind spending the money and investing the time, sure it never hurts to try both ways.  I just think there are higher odds pursuits to improve audio quality.

If the circuit topology of your components are not fully differentially balanced from input to output then there is zero sonic benefit of using balanced ICs.

While this belief is held by many audiophiles, and I believe it is true in the majority of cases, I would not consider it to be a hard and fast rule. It is certainly possible, IMO, that a balanced connection between components having unbalanced internal signal paths (i.e., components that are not "fully balanced") may sound better than an unbalanced interconnection in some or many cases.

Why? There are a number of potential reasons, depending on the designs of the specific components being connected as well as on the cable that is being used:

1) When the interconnection is changed from RCA to XLR or vice-versa the configuration of the interface circuits that are being used in the two interconnected components is being changed;

2) Susceptibility to ground loop effects is being changed. Ground loop effects can cause a multitude of subtle sonic effects, not just hum. And those effects will tend to have little if any predictability, as they depend on factors that are usually unknown, such as the internal grounding configurations of the two components, and on whether each component connects the shields of the cables to circuit ground or to chassis, and on how circuit ground and chassis are interconnected in each component. Both technical factors and my perception of anecdotal evidence that has reported over the years suggest that balanced interconnections are usually less susceptible to ground loop effects than unbalanced interconnections;

3) In many cases input and output impedances will be different;

4) In many cases overall system gain will be increased by 6 db with a balanced connection;

5) Sensitivity to cable differences will be reduced or eliminated in the case of balanced interconnections if the interface circuits in the equipment conform to the AES48 balanced standard Ralph (Atmasphere) has often referred to;

6) And speaking more generally the basic operating principles of the two kinds of interfaces are different.

7) And of course the cable is different.

***None of that has anything to do with whether or not the internal signal paths of the two components are balanced.***

And a lot of that doesn’t have much if any relation to the lengths of the cables or to the noise environment either.

As is often the case in audio, the only way to know for sure in a specific system is to try it both ways.

Regards,
-- Al

I concur with 3_easy_payments.
The AES balanced standard was made for recording studios. Its' implementation in home stereo has only become available in recent decades. Unfortunately, not all manufacturers design equipment using the balanced standard according to the standard.
One of the benefits of using XLR's with true balanced equipment is that cable design should not make a significant difference in sound quality.
You don't have to take my word. PM Ralph Karsten (atmasphere) and get his take on this.
Bob

Well said. Beautiful. 

If the circuit topology of your components are not fully differentially balanced from input to output then there is zero sonic benefit of using balanced ICs.  In fact you could even make the sound worse in some applications such as taking a balanced signal from a CD and sending through an unbalanced amp which creates unnecessary conversions that may degrade sonics. 

But if you take a balanced signal and connect it to a preamplifier that is truly balanced - it keeps the signal balanced from input to output, then the preamplifier’s balanced output can then be connected with balanced cables to a power amplifier, whose input circuitry is also balanced. In this case using balanced connections has theoretical advantages over unbalanced connections. These include the benefits (in theory) of lower noise and randomization of DAC non-linearity plus balanced connection noise immunity.  Whether you notice the difference varies from system to system and person to person.  

I don't recommend balanced. Its not anything wrong with them, I just see them as a poor use of resources. Not cost-effective. You can always in my experience get better results for less money with a good RCA. Which stands to reason. Balanced is a whole lot more complicated. 

For features that simply aren't a factor in home use. Balanced is for professional use and so has a whole bunch of professional features. Long runs. We don't have long runs. Locking. We don't have roadies. We don't need locking. Ground first. This is what causes the awful sound when you connect something without turning it off first. Pro's do this a lot. We don't. 

All these design elements cost money, in order to provide benefits we simply do not need.

Try whatever Synergistic interconnect you can find for your budget. When you hear how deep and wide the stage is, and how big and full bodied the sound, you will see.