Ptss:
If you are referring to the Spectral posts, there are three parts because WB forum had a limit on photos per post.
Here are links to all three parts:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18147-Spectral-DMC-10-mods
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18148-Spectral-DMC-10-mods-part-2
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18149-Spectral-DMC-10-mods-part-3 |
Giving it another try to help here, after re-reading your scenario. For my project, I read all the cap shootout opinions and took my chances. My beryllium tweeters really like the SGO, but I cannot say more. Absoutely zero objections.
For the mids, I read in more than one cap comparison report that M-Cap Supremes shine in the midrange. After a lengthy break-in, I can agree, although I hear more lower-mid pronouncement than upper-mid (in my rig and in my room- an extremely important qualification that cannot be ignored). I also seem to recall reading that M-Cap Supremes, in crossover applications, yield a better result than EVO, which led me to the M-Cap Supremes for my midrange caps. For about $200 per speaker, you can try two 18uF plus one 10uF, which will yield nearly your 47uF target. To me, it makes sense to try that one first. Took about 20 hours to sound decent, and 50 hours to sound good. After that, they just kept getting better, with more sound and detail coming through. But that was compared to the Solen cap.
Good luck, and please keep us posted. |
Dhl: My project was really different than yours, and it is not a direct comparison at all. Sorry if I failed to make that clear.
Tweeter upgrade was only drivers. I had already started with the S/G/O, so my only variable was the driver.
Midrange upgrade was only capacitors. I originally had a single Solen cap and replaced it with six Mundorf M-Cap Supremes. No further comparison. I went about as far as I could go, given the large cap values of the mids. I think that set me back about $900.
Sorry I have no direct comparisons between other caps. |
Thanks DH for the link. I found it interesting but did not see any post mods pics? |
John:
I wanted to thank you publicly for generous offer. I will try those Carity caps when I get them. |
Rtilden:
Based on your experience, did you find a material difference between the Mundorf M-Cap Supremes vs the SGO? I understand the "Supremes" do not contain oil, so my quandary is still SG only vs SGO vs silver oil vs "no oil". I still do not quite understand the use/impact of oil in the first place.
|
DHL,
It's funny how these reviews go. I think at this level of capacitor it must come down to system synergy and personal preference.
I have experience only with the 630VDC version of the MR and that's the one with which I would stay. For my friend's crossover project a few weeks ago I ordered a set of MR's from PartsConnexion. They didn't have the ones we needed in stock but it only took them a couple of days to get them from their distributor. If PartsConnexion is indicating a longer delay for the values you need then you might give MadiSound a call. HifiCollective in the UK might be another source.
You mentioned the various conductive materials in your post. As I know you are aware, the MR is an aluminized polypropylene cap. I prefer the tone of the copper film caps more, but as you also mentioned in your note the cost of admission to those caps is high. To me, short of making the jump into those caps, the MR is the best out there.
I reread your original post and it looks like you need a 4.7mfd for your tweeter? I have a pair of MR 630VDC in that value that I don't use anymore since moving the crossover to Duelund CAST. I'll send you an email offline to discuss further.
Cheers,
John |
Dhl: I have a bit of recent experience, although with a different speaker. This summer I threw caution to the wind and did some nice crossover upgrades to my Tyler Woodmere speakers. I wanted to share my results in a dedicated thread, but I wanted to give you my thoughts now, so that you could have a bit more information to help you.
I swapped out the SEAS Millennium tweeters for the new SEAS Beryllium tweeters (exact size and fastener swap). I already had the Mundorf Silver/Gold/Oil tweeter cap. I am very, very pleased with the result. I did, naturally, swap resistors also, to match sensitivity as required. I won't go into a long rant, but this is super nice now. Multiple high freq instruments now are played simultaneously with realistic separation and space of each. Nothing harsh or tinny. And the presence is superb.
The tweeter mod was so nice, it made me long for better-defined midrange, especially upper mids where they are approaching high frequencies, as the mids did not measure up to these great high freq notes. Midrange caps are 120 uF, and I bit the bullet and bought six Mundorf M-Cap Supremes which total that capacitance. Yep, they are a big bunch of caps that take a lot of space. Well....was it worth it?? Hell Yes! A good bit of break-in was required, and right off the bat I only noticed more separation in upper mids. But as they broke in, I am getting a ton more definition, air and bass. Much more lower midrange/upper bass coming through now. The midrange drivers are 7", and in the big Woodmere enclosure I get gobs of bass. That is the biggest adjustment for me. I keep asking myself- is it realistic, or just bigger? Those big midrange caps are nearly broken in now I reckon, and I think it is both bigger and more realistic. I accomplished exactly what I was hoping to do in keeping up with the new tweeters.
Best part is that these improvements, while significant, do not ruin the overall sonics of the Woodmere speakers. They have simply been woken up. I could not be happier. Hope this gives you a bit of confidence to try your luck. |
John:
The more I look into this and the more reviews I read, the more opinions differ.
Looks like the 47 mFd will probably be the Mondorf EVO. Al/oil or SGO I am not sure yet. Some say (ie Tony Gee) that the Al oil are better for midrange which is the application here. On a purely material basis, I prefer the use of silver metallization over Al due to it's conductivity. No one else makes a cap this size that even comes close to fitting.
For the Diamond tweeter coupling cap, I could use the Clarity MR, as it is very reasonably priced. I cannot find anyone with stock on the 630V part, only the 400V part, which Parts Connexion carries. Do you know of any stocking dealers for these? Any opinion about 630V vs 400V? I have heard one should use the highest voltage rating is a series (Tony Gee again).
I would also consider the Jupiter for this application if it weren't for the very high cost of these ($520 pair). If I don't like them, I may not be able to re-sell them if they have been soldered in a circuit. I was speaking with (Jerry??) at Jupiter and he was very knowledgeable, but had no direct experience of the copper foil/wax units being used with B&W diamond tweeters. He also made mention that a source he knows (that likes to cut apart caps to see what's in them) tells him Mundorf "oils" actually have no oil in them. I find this surprising, but perhaps they use extremely small oil films that are not easily detected. |
DHL,
I wanted to thank you as well for your thoughtful reply. I will be interested to learn how your project goes and hope that you will post updates to this thread.
I wanted to make one more comment about the capacitors I discussed which were in a bit of disagreement with Tony Gee's observation. For me the Mundorf S/G/O tilted things upward too much whereas I found the Clarity MR to be very well balanced. In my system the latter was the superior performer and based on that experience I would not recommend the former to anyone wanting to avoid adding emphasis to the high frequencies. Face's and/or Undertow's comments on this topic a few years back on the Capacitor Log thread make for good reading as well. I agree with you too that it'll ultimately come down to system synergies and personal preferences, I simply wanted to relate my experience for your consideration.
All the best,
John |
Ptss:
Sorry if I misinterpreted your comments. Mine were based on an experience I had a few years back with B&W regarding a delamination problem I had with some 804s speakers I had. The finish on the top of the speaker (Cherry) was splitting and cracking and I felt this was a manufacturing defect but B&W would not agree. They were arrogant and condescending which left a bad taste in my mouth. They also tend to believe that their engineers have the last word in innovation and if they did not think of it, well then it will not be an improvement. Ergo I would be loath to contact them about any potential component replacement as I can pretty much predict their response.
You mention JBL and I was going to point out that I also re-built the crossovers in my JBL L212's, as well as the power amp in the sub. I did not use crazy audiophile components (just good Dayton polypro caps and air core inductors) and the sonic results were amazing. I had previously modded these by mounting the drivers on solid walnut plates to time align them. That mod is documented on the JBL Lansing Heritage site (under DHL or DHL93449 no sure which) a few years back.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?32862-Modded-and-restored-JBL-L212-speaker-system
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?33993-L212-Sub-amp-rebuild
The post on the WB forum is under the Spectral Manufacturer's section of the forum.
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18147-Spectral-DMC-10-mods |
Hello again DH. I simply asked questions-that I thought may be helpful to you or others thinking of such mods. Re B&W; JBL Engineering was very (in fact surprisingly so) helpful re my 1985 250Ti's many years ago; even to provide me new ideas that they had come up with and would be implementing! I respect the investment B&W has in it's business and goodwill so anticipate good PR; why shouldn't you approach them? Are you perhaps doing a bit of 'assuming'? I believe Mundorf are technically expert. I could not find your post re the Spectral DMC 10 in the WhatsBestForum but am interested as I enjoy a DMC 20 with phono in my system. Might authorized repair centers have knowledgeable techs-perhaps with real interest in what they do? |
John:
Thank you for your thoughtful comments.
My goal is to remove a bit of upper midrange brightness without effecting resolution in bells, symbols, vocal microphonics. The speakers are not at all bad as they are, but could stand a bit of improvement in these areas. I well know from my experience modding amplifiers that improvements in certain components can improve the sound in seemingly small but still significant fashions. I have no hard and fast goal for the end result, but will probably know an improvement when I hear it.
A few other parameters. The replacements need to fit on the existing pc board without kluges or modifications. No running feet of extra wire from a remotely mounted component to the board. They cannot reduce the reliability of the speaker by leakage of oil or wax. And finally there is cost. Given the value of the 803Ds I don't feel like spending $5000 on caps.
I was using the extensive review of humblehomemadehifi for initial evaluations. That review does not place the Clarity MR above the Supreme SG, but I realize there is probably a degree of subjectivity (to each his own). The Jupiter caps are highly regarded, perhaps above the Mundorf line.
As I posted above, it looks like B&W may have stepped back in SQ for the later Diamond series. They may have had a reason for using Supreme Oils (Al metallization) instead of the more expensive SG as in my D version, but I suspect it may have been more cost driven than SQ driven.
Regarding the other components, from my BOM documents on the 803D, the resistors are part number RNP50s, which are 100W, 5% power film resistors (TO247 package) that are clipped in to heatsinks on the CO board. They are made by MB Electronics in Germany. The resistor in series with the diamond tweeter is either 0.5 or 1.0 ohm (there is a contradiction between the value on the BOM and the schematic). The resistor in series with the midrange FTF is 100W 2.0 ohm RNP50s. My suggested replacement would be a Caddock MP900 power film resistor, which has a tighter tolerance and better tc, same TO247 package.
The inductors look like nothing special. Air core, conventional wire wound, wire gauge 1.2 mm (not flat ribbon).
It seems to me the most important cap is the 47 mFd midrange FTF coupling cap. But here we are limited severely by that capacitance. Mundorf has a Supreme EVO SGO that is 47 mFd, but it costs $700-800 and is too large to fit. The next closest are the EVOs I cited above. Bypassing is possible, but probably not that effective as this driver is crossed over at 4KHz, and a bypass would be kluge at best.
The next is probably the diamond tweeter coupling cap at 4.7 mFd. The Jupiter will fit as well as perhaps the Clarity
And yes, I considered re-wiring as well. But not for now, as that requires a complete strip down of all the drivers, and I want to avoid removing that FTF midrange if at all possible.
|
ptss
Do not worry. I have plenty of experience modding equipment. If you doubt it, see my post on mods for the Spectral DMC-10 in the WhatsBest forum.
BTW, my version is just the "803D". I have it on good authority that the later version "803 Diamond" uses only the Supreme Oil, not the SG or the SGO. This info was provided by looking at a replacement crossover for the Diamond version. Seems like that is a big step back, according to the only review I have found to rank all three Mundorf Supremes (humblehomemadehifi).
Call B&W regarding crossover caps? Are you kidding?
A simple swap out of a crossover caps is not rocket science. It will not damage the speaker or destroy my amplifiers. At this level of performance, the results will probably be very subtle, but that does not mean they are not worth doing.
Manufacturers often make design decisions based on cost as well as performance. We have an opportunity to re-evaluate that decision and remove cost from the equation, up to certain limits. |
Dhl93449,
My experience with the Mundorf S/G/O was that they added too much emphasis in the treble. I do not have any experience with the S/G capacitors but I suspect I would like them even less than the S/G/O as I would expect them to be brighter and maybe a bit harsher. Given a choice between those two I'd go with the S/G/O, but as I'll describe below, at this level I'd go with the Clarity MR capacitors.
My crossover journeys have ultimately led me to Duelund CAST-Cu capacitors, however, along the way a capacitor that I liked a lot was the Clarity MR. They are fast, extremely quiet, dynamic, very well balanced from top to bottom, spatial and holographic. To those attributes the Duelund CAST-Cu adds a naturalness of tone, greater harmonic richness, and I think perhaps greater sustain although it's been too long since I made that change to likely recall that attribute accurately. Also, I would say that the Clarity MR beats the Duelund VSF-Cu in everything but tone and harmonic richness. I recommend the VSF or CAST ahead of the MR, but unless going with a Duelund crossover, my experience leads me to recommend the Clarity MR without hesitation. I would add, however, that Bill's experience with the Jupiter copper foil caps should not be ignored either, I just don't have any experience with them. Again, based on my experience, and considering budget, if it were my project I would use the Clarity MR's throughout, connecting 2x10micF + 1x27micF caps in parallel to give me the 47micF equivalent for that big value. I strongly prefer the Clarity MR over the Mundorf S/G/O, and as I said, I'm quite confident I would like the Mundorf S/G even less - but comments such as these should be placed in the context of one's system.
Also, depending on what internal wire is already in the speakers I would also consider rewiring the speakers. On my projects I have had very satisfactory results using Kimber TCX. The effect of doing that should not be underestimated. Kimber's Hyper Pure grade copper has no grain that I can hear. Wherever copper wiring is used in my system (interconnects, speaker cables, crossover wiring, speaker wiring) that is what I use. They system is very, very free of grain.
What resistors are in the speakers? My preferred resistors are Mundorf M-Resist 20W. I think Bill likes Mils? Others will recommend the Duelunds, though in my systems I preferred the Mundorfs. For me the M-Resist give a very nice, solid weight to acoustic strings - I don't like plucked acoustic strings to sound too wispy so have come to like the M-Resist a lot.
I do have a couple of questions though. In your original post you said that you wanted to upgrade your crossovers, and in a subsequent post you said that you wanted to maintain the character of the 803. So my questions are: (1) what are you hearing (or not hearing, as the case may be) that has you motivated to upgrade the crossover - what improvements are you seeking?, and (2) what part of the character of the speakers are you wanting to maintain? In what direction are you wanting to take your speakers and/or your system?
Also, what inductors are in the speakers?
Finally, as an upgrade example, I am currently helping a friend with a crossover upgrade to his Silverline LaFolia speakers. The LaFolia uses well-integrated tour-de-force of drivers including the Dynaudio Esotar T330D tweeter, so I have a pretty good feel for where we are headed. For that project we are using:
- Clarity MR 630 VDC caps
- North Creek 10awg inductors
- Mundorf M-Resist 20W resistors
- Kimber TCX internal speaker wire
- WBT Topline binding posts
Unless my friend were going to spend a lot more money I think this will be a very nice setup.
Cheers,
John |
I don't wish to sound to basic here but I believe more bypass caps may be the only sensible thing. Have you asked B&W-- or an authorized repair center? Are you up on any crossover design changes for the newest series? ?Have you spoken to Mundorf? And lastly,seriously, have you had a lot of success modifying crossover in other comparably high quality intelligently deigned speakers |
Grannyring
Thanks for your input. Reinforced what I was thinking. The cost to do the swap to the silver/gold/oils would be about $1000 for both channels. Serious money.
I think I will stick with Mundorf at this point, as I want to maintain the character of the 803. The Dueland are stupid money and there is no place to put them without adding a lot of wiring inductance to the network. The Jupiter are about $500 more than the Mundorf for a complete swap sans the 47 mfd, and the 10 mfd 100V part is just a bit too long to fit on the crossover pc board. But looks like a serious contender for the 4.7 mfd feeding the diamond tweeter if I want to do that alone.
I also discovered that all the bass driver mounting screws were barely tight. Torquing those up made a large difference in the bass response. I also torqued the tension bar on the mid-range driver and that also improved sonics quite a bit as well. Freebes that didn't cost me a dime. |
No it would not be worth it to stay in the Mundorf family. If you want a much better sounding cap top to bottom, then go with the Jupiter copper foil in bees wax cap. Nice step up for sure! I know as I did it. Unless to go with Jupiter or Duelund, stay put.
Yes the Evo is your best bet on the 47uf. |
