@dhl93449 I found here http://www.audiokit.it/it/30951-condensatori-mundorf (I am from Italy) there is a 47uF Supreme EVO Oil, which measures 76x67 mm. The 47uF standard M-Cap EVO Oil measures 50x50 mm, the same as your EVO Silver Gold Oil. Do you think the extra 26mm thickness of the Supreme Evo can make it not fit in? Maybe if Stoni (see the 12-09-2015 10:27pm post) could use the Supreme EVO Oil into his 803D2 the same could happen in our 803D ... The M-Cap Evo Oil is available at 100uF, so if I use the EVO Oil in series with the midrange maybe I could put woofer and midrange (coupling) caps of the same type (like in the original project!) even if you told me woofer caps don’t make significant difference in sound, but there would be a theorical coherency between bass and mids, both with EVO Oil instead of MKP, and the same thing would happen between mid (bypassing) cap and tweeter (coupling) cap, both with Supreme SGO instead of Supreme SG. I am also thinking of removing all silver from my speakers, and "downgrade" from the Supreme SG to the standard Supreme for coupling tw cap and bypassing mid cap: warmer, richer and more natural sound, with absolutely no emphasys on the treble and upper midrange. Maybe If I do, I would transform the B&Ws in other speakers and I don’t want to, but I would be happier. Hard choice |
B&W itself did "downgrade" from Supreme Silver Gold to an "inedited" Supreme Oil, without silver, and the general consensus is the 803 D2 sounds much better in the treble range than the D, much smoother (and still not enough...maybe the problem is Mundorf?).
I don’t know if replacing a silver cap with another silver cap, but with oil, is worth the money an the work; @dhl93449 please, I ask you to tell me the changes you had in hf so I can have some elements to make my decision easier (better to say less hard).
@stoni chaged the B&W custom 51uF Supreme Oil in his 803D2 with SGO, then he had to make another work to change tw cap again (with a Jensen Duelund if I remember well), it is clear he was not satisfied from the upgrade (iscit a real upgrade, with these diamond tweeters?) from an (aluminium?) oil cap to a silver gold oil cap, since the latter highlights high frequencies and may mask the other parts of the spectrum.
In a well tuned and high quality system (in mine, electricity and source are near to state-of-the-art, with a power regenerator followed by isolation trasformers for each machine and a divine Accuphase DP700 SACD player, cables are near to the best Cardas ever made, Luxman 509u integrated is not the best amp in the world but if you read Uday Reddy’s Soundstage! 2009 review maybe you may hurry to find an used one, or to buy the new 509x) a SGO capacitor could sound without harshness afterall.
Don’t misunderstand me: I don’t listen now with harshness in the highs (only some selected albums make me struggle, for example Genesis’ "Selling England by the pound" or Joe Satriani’s "The Extremist", and I know even these albums could sound better, and all the music with them), I have simply reached speakers limits and I want to go on in my audiophile journey of (personal and equipment’s) improvement.
Another idea could be to use the Supreme EVO Oil in all positions: 4.7uF tw coupling, 47uF mr coupling and 10uF mr bypassing, and EVO Oil on the woofers.
Or 4.7uF Supreme Evo Oil in tw coupling and 10uF in mr bypassing, Evo Oil both in mr coupling (47uF) and in woofer caps (2x100), to make something similar to the original project of both D and D2.
The only truth is one should have to try, not reasoning "on the paper" ... !
I had a change in my system I did not tell you until now...
A (deplorable in my opinion) technician repaired my Purepower putting inside it Claritycap SA caps instead of the original taiwanese Fu-Jack caps (they seem Panasonic or Vishay clones) without telling me before, maybe because he had that caps in stock, without need for ordering a 10uF 500V (for the power stage, right after power inlet) Panasonic and a 2uF 600V (for battery recharge system) Vishay caps.
Now I have the impression of a tonal shift towards mid-highs.
The Humble Honemade Hifi comparison tells the Claritycap make sound shift towards clarity, since Panasonic is the most neutral cap in its range, it does not highlight anything.
Do you think I have to make another technician replace the Claritycap SA in my regenerator with Panasonic and Vishay (since there is no Panasonic cap under 10uF), and only after that to think at speakers recapping?
Many thanks |
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This kind of amp cap coupled output is very rare to have. I take it it’s tube with no output transformer, but with capacitor coupling instead, I would just get an OTL myself but??"
Not as rare as you think. Did you know the Bryston BDA-1/2/3 all have Al electrolytic (surface mount) coupling caps in their outputs? Along with I think their preamps, even current production. Their engineers are concerned with the small amount of DC offset their class A discrete amps produce (10 - 20 mV), ergo the caps. Using a 10-30 uFd film coupling cap is out of the question for them, as it's size and cost would be prohibitive.
Bryston does not parallel a film cap with these Al Elct caps in the output stages, due to the lack of compact surface mount film versions (poly pro are very rare in surface mount), and NPO ceramics are outrageously expensive.
In my new BDA-3, I removed the Elect caps and put in a surface mount shorting bar. The small DC offset is easily handled by my Parasound JC2 preamp and its DC offset servo controllers. Made a significant difference in sound quality. I have been in contact with Bryston Eningineering and urged them to put in DIP switches so that users have the option of shorting out those caps if they have downstream circuitry that can handle the offsets.
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Not as rare as you think. Did you know the Bryston BDA-1/2/3 all have Al electrolytic (surface mount) coupling caps in their outputs?
I said amps, they are preamps, and yes many preamps and sources are cap coupled, but they don't need anywhere near the size cap an amp does so one only good quality film cap will do them, again never by-pass them. Cheers George |
George:
You miss the point. I just explained that film caps are often not an option when the manufacturer is using surface mount technology for the components. Plus, the proper size poly pro film cap will physically not fit in a 1U chassis and is extremely expensive to boot. Polyester (mylar) caps are smaller, but are not as good as polypropylene.
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biggy:
I am currently using all Silver Gold Oil Mundorfs; either Supreme versions (TW coupling, MR bypassing) or EVO (not Supreme) versions (MR coupling), except for the bass LF crossovers, which are bone stock. As mentioned, the harshness I believe is from the FST MIDRANGE, not the tweeter. If you want to de-emphasize the tweeter, you can increase the resistor in series with it. Replacing that MKP 47 uFd with EVO oil or EVO SGO will make a major difference, so I would start there and then listen to the results. I would not go in and wholesale replace multiple caps and resistors. Adding the anti vibration weight from the 800/802 can make another significant difference. You can see this in the midrange driver replacement video on the B&W parts website.
I put little importance into those cap reviews that rate plain "oil" with Al metallization with silver or silver/gold. Too many variables that may or may not apply to my personal system. When I have compared oil vs SGO in preamp outputs and DAC outputs, I have always like the SGO.
As I said, try the "oil" versions first and see if you like them. They are the cheapest version and if they are better for you than SGO, then you are ahead of the game. But be aware that swapping these caps is not easy, and pulling and re-installing the crossovers is time consuming.
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George:
You miss the point. Sorry no you confused the discussion, you said amp (see below) and I said amp and then you bought preamps into it. Most of us with the knowledge know that many sources and pre’s have much smaller coupling caps than what would be on the output of an amplifier. "For example, when an Al electrolytic is used as a coupling cap at the output of an amplifier driving low impedance loads." As I responded to this statement of yours. Nothing to do with preamps. Cheers George |
To my ear and based on years of testing and rolling caps, Mundorf caps with silver, silver & gold and the Evo line are all tilted up in the presence area. For that reason they are just not my cup of tea for mids and highs. This is especially true in the upper end Evo line. A speaker that is on the dull and dark side is a good place for these, but not as good as film and foil caps. The best sounding caps are film and foil from the likes of Jupiter and Duelund. The Jupiter copper foils are in a completely different league sonically being more natural in tone and less electronic sounding. Their more affordable VT line is also wonderful. I would also consider the wonderful Jantzen Alumen Z as they are very smooth and natural.
For the largest values (bass) I would look to Clarity CSA before Mundorf.
I would also stay away from Mundorf resistors or sand cast resistors as they sound rough compared to Path Audio or the more affordable Mills MRA.
For the most part I agree with George about the pitfalls of bypassing and I avoid doing this most of the time in crossovers. There are some proven combos, but in general they can sound phasey and strange. |
I avoid doing this most of the time in crossovers. There are some proven combos, but in general they can sound phasey and strange. "Phasey" An even better description than my "smearing", an overlap of two different cap sounds and time constants doing the same job. Never bypass caps in the signal path.!! Use the best quality single or two or three if you need them that big identical paralleled ones you can find. Leave the by-passing only to power supply and V rail de-coupling caps. Cheers George |
"Sorry no you confused the discussion, you said amp (see below) and I said amp and then you bought preamps into it. Most of us with the knowledge know that many sources and pre’s have much smaller coupling caps than what would be on the output of an amplifier. "
Last time I checked, "preamps", line amps, and power amps are all species of the genus "amps". You are the one assigning the term "amp" to Power amps.
The point being that there are numerous amplifiers using electrolytic coupling caps in the output, not just tube power amps. Substituting a film cap for these electrolytics may the best sonic solution, but not considered practical by the manufacturer.
Phasey??? WTF is that? Are you implying putting two polypro caps in parallel create abnormal phase response in a speaker? Can you point to where this has ever been measured or shown mathematically? If these high end audio caps are supposed to be closer to ideal caps (the purpose of their manufacturers), then there should be no such behavior in their performance, singly or in parallel. |
Phasey??? WTF is that?
You have no idea, if you don't know what we're talking about, then continue to bypass your signal caps and you'll never know because you obviously
can't
hear it. Cheers George |
The issue of Mundorf vs. Copper film:
Mundorf Supreme caps have their very own house sound. To me it is like a disney / Fuji film sheen with hypersaturated colors. Scintillation is also a good way to describe it.
This is what Magico and B&W like to use in their top end.
If you bought your speakers for that, stick with the capacitor and speaker brand.
If you are getting into swapping to copper film caps, which are my choice, you maybe need different speakers altogether, because they are not going to sound the same and you are going to end up in a lot of expensive upgrades before you realize that.
A good cost effective compromise IMHO is to use Clarity's top end with copper film bypass caps for anything over 5uF
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Erik S:
Last time I checked, a few years ago, Jupiter did not make a copper film cap in 47 uFd to replace that critical midrange coupling cap. Clarity cap makes one in their CSA line, but that is metallized poly pro. It is 62 mm diameter (much larger than the 50 mm diam EVO and the 42 mm MKP), so it may not fit on the MR CO board. Plus, I doubt if those CSA versions are any better than an OIL or SGO Mundorf. In general copper film caps are too large to fit or are not available in high enough capacitance. And of course, we dare not parallel smaller values for fear of the dreaded "phasey" smearing effect.
I also need to say that in general, with 90% of the music I listen to, the modded B&W 803D I have sound wonderful. There is some material, mainly compressed rock (like in my case Genesis Trick of the Tail/CD ,not vinyl), that sounds harsh. I do not ascribe to your description of these speakers whatsoever, and I have had numerous friends and strangers listen and they find the results impressive (some are musicians). So I am happy with them for the most part, but continue to look for ways to improve them if I can. |
Jantzen Alumen Z. Just combine/paralell for needed total by using as close to equal values as possible. I think the Clarity CSA is a better sounding cap on the mids then the Evo line and should fit using good DIY skills.
You can paralell caps of the same brand at near the same value with no problem at all. In fact, this method is used my some very high end builders for the best sound.
I don’t doubt that your upgraded B&W sound wonderful and better than stock. More than one way to audio bliss! |
You can paralell caps of the same brand at near the same value with no problem at all. In fact, this method is used my some very high end builders for the best sound. Yes this is the only time to do that with caps in the signal path as I said previously. And yes it "can" even be beneficial as 2 3 or 4 paralleled caps will have a lower esr than one cap of the same make and value. BUT!! the lower esr means that driver will have a slightly louder presentation due to the lowering of series resistance. So the voicing of that driver will change to what the manufacturer designed it to be and this should be taken into account. Cheers George |
I've done some work on my 800D2 crossover, which makes the mid-treble response smoother and more "seamless".
The FST driver exhibits a slight peak at 3.5 kHz, which can be fixed with a RLC (2mH + 6R+ 1uF) network in shunt with the driver, and by soldering a 0.67mH inductor in parallel with the tweeter, the tweeter's response conforms more closely to ideal, and the improved phase relationship reduces the dip around 2kHz.
Ideally, the tweeter series cap should be 4.3uF.
I've confirmed before / after with comprehensive measurements. |
hi guys,
hope to open this archeologic thread back up 😁.
for the last 2 years i've been working on a couple of n803's.
guys have i been upgrading these speakers.
i rebuilded the crossovers from scrap.
hard wired on wooden multiplex boards.
the following brands have been used:
duelund vsf, cast cu, silver bypass for tweeter.
jupiter cu wax, mundorf , jantzen foil inductors, path audio resistors for midrange.
mundorf bl 180 for bass and mkp for parallel.
matrix skeleton has been removed in the midrange compartment and a tube shaped room with a difuser has been installed.
a labyrinth has been installed between the matrix bass compartment to reduce standing waves.
original tweeter housing has been modified to accept diamond domes and therfore uses the 1st order crossover as seen in the "D" series.
the speaker cabinet was completely stripped, stained in red and sprayed in hi gloss with the polishing and stuff.
the tweeter housing as well the bass port are veneered in dark lambs leather.
as final all units have been finalized with chrome trim rings and bars as seen in the signature 30.
too bad i can't upload pictures but they are beautiful and sound awesome...
cheers,
werner |
Hi folks. I'm new to the Forum but I've joined to explore the 803d crossover mods. I've owned these speakers since new and I am getting older which brings its own set of issues regarding hearing loss. As a consequence I'm having to play my music at quieter levels. I love the speaker but my purpose for doing the mods would be the help them come alive at lower volumes and of course an improvement across the board at all volumes would be wonderful. I too hear a little harshness on the top end of the tweeter at times, but for me the biggest fault with the speaker is that the mid-range is a little recessed and lacking detail. I'm not really looking for improvements in bass which is good because it seems like those that have modded the capacitors in the base crossover did not realize many gains. I have good knowledge in electronics and have built and molded many audio devices especially vacuum tube devices for both music and guitar amps. Too many mods over the years to describe - I've been at this for about 35 years now. Having said all that I spaced out the parts and this project could cost around 1500 Canadian dollars so I'm on the fence at the moment and this is where I'm hoping you guys will help me. Funny enough I heard Totem metal V2 speakers and this is something of a target for me to get that kind of resolution at lower levels. So my choices are really to mod the 803d which I still love for the scale they bring to the musical presentation or bite the bullet and sell them and try to wait for a used pair of Totems (or other contenders) to come for sale which doesn't happen very often. I'm retired now and finances are more of a consideration than they once were. Thanks in advance for any advice you guys can offer. Thanks, Dale |
