B&W 803D crossover caps

@dhl93449 
@stoni 

I have 803D first series since 2009, I won't change them with D2 or D3 series since (expecially the D3 with only 2 woofers) I find them leaner than the original D series.

The 803D are the best speakers (in my very well tuned system, with Purepower 3000 and two isolation trasformers added in series, one for Luxman 509u integrated amplifier, one for Accuphase DP 700 SACD player, Cardas Clear series cables - Beyond XL for isolation trasformers, Beyond and standard Clear power for amp and source, Beyond XLR interconnects-, except for speakers -where I have still the old Golden Reference, 2 pairs biwiring-) I have ever heard in their price range, they are complete speakers and can play all kind of music, with satisfying bass response (no other speaker have that punch) and great clarity and imaging.

803D obiouvsly have faults:

- in the highs, sometimes harsh/hard/highlighted  (I could never make Genesis' "Selling England By The Pound" sound without harsh metallic highs, since lots of albums sound great and smooth, maybe it's a matter of recordings)
 - in the midrange, lacking of warmht and richness, sometimes hard in jazz music (horns dynamic peaks sometimes are strident)
- in the bass, sometimes fat in the mid-bass (covering the lower midrange) and not so well articulated and "vibrant"

After reading your experiences, "merging" both, I am considering to replace caps, sticking with Mundorf, trying to respect as much as possible the original project:

- the Supreme SG on the tweeter, with a Supreme SGO; I hate silver sound signature, but I want to respect the project only adding "warmht" and refinement an oil cap can bring to the table

- the MKP coupling cap on the midrange (the bigger weak point!) with a Supreme EVO Oil; I started thinking about a Supreme Classic, but it seems it does not fit :/ ; Stoni said his 803D2 now sound better than the Sonus Faber in the midrange using Supreme Evo Oil !
I don't want to add silver at this point, where the original project had no silver caps, and I don't want to highlight upper midrange giving an unwanted "silver signature"

- the Supreme SG bypassing cap on the midrange with a Supreme SGO (same as tweeter thoughts : I hate silver, but I don't want a revolution, only a step up in warmht and refinement)

- the woofers MKP caps, with ... ???
Maybe every other cap I will put will be better than the MKP, so I would not have to worry about!
As I told before, keeping punch and richness, I would like to improve bass articulation making it more "vibrant".
I am thinking about Supreme Silver Gold, without oil (maybe could I "recycle" caps I put out of tweeter and midrange?) ...
There was no silver in the original project here, but I think it could be useful making bass faster. On the other hand, I don't want it to become lean.

Any comment or suggestion (keeping in mind I want to use only Mundorf capacitors and I don't want to change too much the speakers, but only to improve where they have weak points) is welcome, many thanks if you do

I don't want to bypass caps ;) , I read the cheap 47nF MKP is in series (a "coupling cap") with the midrange driver, while the 10nF Supreme Silver Gold Oil (in the D2, without oil in the D series) is in parallel (a "bypassing cap") with the driver.

My project is to put a 47nF Supreme EVO Oil instead of the MKP and a 10nF Supreme Silver Gold Oil instead of the same model but without oil in mounted in the 803D, and to replace the 4.7nF Supreme Silver Gold in series with the tweeter with a 4.7nF Supreme Silver Gold Oil.

I read above 803D2 have a 51nF (instead of 47nF) Supreme Silver Gold Oil on the tweeter, maybe that's why D2 series is smoother than the D (which tweeter cap is without oil), but even more forward in the treble range.

Sorry, I used "nF" instead of "uF".

@dhl93449

Do you like my project (to "add oil" to the 4.7uF TW coupling cap and to the 10uF MR bypassing cap -since I have 803D, not 803D2- and to replace the 47uF MR coupling cap with the Supreme EVO Oil) ?

What differences could I expect using Supreme EVO Silver Gold Oil instead of Supreme EVO (Aluminium) Oil in the MR?

What values for TW and MR resistors do you suggest?

Ok, I will keep the MKP caps on the bass section.

Many thanks

Wait a minute, maybe I have misunderstood some things:

- does the Supreme EVO Oil not fit in the MR crossover?
Can I use only the standard EVO Oil?

- in the D2, the 10uF bypassing cap is  "Supreme Oil" ... is it a custom model only for B&W speakers, not on the market?

Anyway, my 803D uses Supreme Silver Gold (without oil) both in series with the tweeter (4.7uF) and in parallel with the midrange (10uF).

Replacing both caps with Supreme Silver Gold Oil should give more smoothness and refinement  without changing too much the original project, I guess.

Replacing the MKP 47uF coupling cap in the MR crossover  with the EVO Oil (not the Supreme EVO Oil ?) should give a GREAT improvement in mid frequencies.

@dhl93449  tell me if now I am right

B&W itself did "downgrade" from Supreme Silver Gold to an "inedited" Supreme Oil, without silver, and the general consensus is the 803 D2 sounds much better in the treble range than the D, much smoother (and still not enough...maybe the problem is Mundorf?).

I don’t know if replacing a silver cap with another silver cap, but with oil, is worth the money an the work; @dhl93449 please, I ask you to tell me the changes you had in hf so I can have some elements to make my decision easier (better to say less hard).

@stoni chaged the B&W custom 51uF Supreme Oil in his 803D2 with SGO, then he had to make another work to change tw cap again (with a Jensen Duelund if I remember well), it is clear he was not satisfied from the upgrade (iscit a real upgrade, with these diamond tweeters?) from an (aluminium?) oil cap to a silver gold oil cap, since the latter highlights high frequencies and may mask the other parts of the spectrum.

In a well tuned and high quality system (in mine, electricity and source are near to state-of-the-art, with a power regenerator followed by isolation trasformers for each machine and a divine Accuphase DP700 SACD player, cables are near to the best Cardas ever made, Luxman 509u integrated is not the best amp in the world but if you read Uday Reddy’s Soundstage! 2009 review maybe you may hurry to find an used one, or to buy the new 509x) a SGO capacitor could sound without harshness afterall.

Don’t misunderstand me: I don’t listen now with harshness in the highs (only some selected albums make me struggle, for example Genesis’ "Selling England by the pound" or Joe Satriani’s "The Extremist", and I know even these albums could sound better, and all the music with them), I have simply reached speakers limits and I want to go on in my audiophile journey of (personal and equipment’s) improvement.

Another idea could be to use the Supreme EVO Oil in all positions: 4.7uF tw coupling, 47uF mr coupling and 10uF mr bypassing, and EVO Oil on the woofers.

Or 4.7uF Supreme Evo Oil in tw coupling and 10uF in mr bypassing, Evo Oil both in mr coupling (47uF) and in woofer caps (2x100), to make something similar to the original project of both D and D2.

The only truth is one should have to try, not reasoning "on the paper" ... !

I had a change in my system I did not tell you until now...
A (deplorable in my opinion) technician repaired my Purepower putting inside it Claritycap SA caps instead of the original taiwanese Fu-Jack caps (they seem Panasonic or Vishay clones) without telling me before, maybe because he had that caps in stock, without need for ordering a 10uF 500V (for the power stage, right after power inlet) Panasonic and a 2uF 600V (for battery recharge system) Vishay caps.
Now I have the impression of a tonal shift towards mid-highs.

The Humble Honemade Hifi comparison tells the Claritycap make sound shift towards clarity, since Panasonic is the most neutral cap in its range, it does not highlight anything.

Do you think I have to make another technician replace the Claritycap SA in my regenerator with Panasonic and Vishay (since there is no Panasonic cap under 10uF), and only after that to think at speakers recapping?

Many thanks

@dhl93449

I found here http://www.audiokit.it/it/30951-condensatori-mundorf (I am from Italy) there is a 47uF Supreme EVO Oil, which measures 76x67 mm.

The 47uF standard M-Cap EVO Oil measures 50x50 mm, the same as your EVO Silver Gold Oil.

Do you think the extra 26mm thickness of the Supreme Evo can make it not fit in?

Maybe if Stoni (see the 12-09-2015 10:27pm post) could use the Supreme EVO Oil into his 803D2 the same could happen in our 803D ...

The M-Cap Evo Oil is available at 100uF, so if I use the EVO Oil in series with the midrange maybe I could put woofer and midrange (coupling) caps of the same type (like in the original project!) even if you told me woofer caps don’t make significant difference in sound, but there would be a theorical coherency between bass and mids, both with EVO Oil instead of MKP, and the same thing would happen between mid (bypassing) cap and tweeter (coupling) cap, both with Supreme SGO instead of Supreme SG.

I am also thinking of removing all silver from my speakers, and "downgrade" from the Supreme SG to the standard Supreme for coupling tw cap and bypassing mid cap: warmer, richer and more natural sound, with absolutely no emphasys on the treble and upper midrange.

Maybe If I do, I would transform the B&Ws in other speakers and I don’t want to, but I would be happier.

Hard choice