Goatwuss is right on the money. I bought mine in 2006 for close to $5.5K but I have not seen any pair listed for less than $5K since. When driven by the proper amp, you definitely don't need a sub. I went through several amps and nothing could bring out the best from these amazing speakers except the Krell FPB. After Bryston 7BST, Citation 4.1, Mac 501s, CAL MCA2500, I ended up with the FPB 650mc now. At the used price around $6k, I have not found anything better. After several audio shows including CES, I still don't feel the need for upgrade. Matched with Transparent cables and Krell, they could really sing.