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Auditioning Magnepan MMGi's and 1.7i's (and possibly the 3.7i's) on Monday

I'm taking a trip, bringing my dad and my best friend, to a dealer just north of Chicago to audition the Magnepan MMGi's (http://www.magnepan.com/model_MMG) and 1.7i's (http://www.magnepan.com/model_17) (and possibly the 3.7i's (http://http//www.magnepan.com/model_MG_37)). I currently have a pair of Mirage M7SI's that I bought used (with an Onkyo TX-SV717PRO receiver) from a friend for $300. He really hooked me up. However, the speakers aren't very transparent/accurate. They have a nice, warm, and smooth sound to them (which I, and I think most would, prefer to a bright, metallic, and dry sound). They also are limited by their bass response. The woofer simply can handle only so many watts of power before it starts to clip (don't worry, I'm not frying them). It also does not go that low, but that's to be expected from a bass woofer, it isn't a subwoofer, after all. However, I still enjoy every minute of music when listening with them and don't see me selling them anytime soon.
Unfortunately, my end-game HIFI audio system's goal is to have an extremely transparent signal chain (very low distortion and very accurate/flat frequency response) with a great soundstage, one that totally immerses you. Any warmth, coloration, or general EQ I will add with a DSP (I am almost exclusively using digital mediums, usually FLAC files, for playback), as I see fit. So my Mirage's are a stepping stone.

Originally, my plan was to save up for a pair of Philharmonic's "3"'s (http://philharmonicaudio.com/phil3.html). They have ruler-flat frequency response and go all the way down to 20hz without the aide of a subwoofer. They use great, exotic (which I'm attracted to for some psychologic reason, probably to feel unique in owning unconventional technologies) drivers for their tweeter and midrange driver and a "regular" dynamic driver for the bass. They're only $3,500/pair, which, in my opinion, is a total steal (especially since a subwoofer isn't needed).
But recently, via the "audiophile" Subreddit, I was introduced to Magnepans. I knew OF them, but never really researched them and what they're about. So far I've come to these conclusions after a few days of research: Because of it's dipole design, there are more room reflections, which contributes to a large "soundstage". On top of that, the Quasi-Ribbon drivers themselves have excellent (horizontal) dispersion, making said "soundstage" even bigger and more immersive. The Magnepan's bass characteristics are superior to that of conventional, dynamic driver because of how fast-acting the Quasi-Ribbon is. It responds instantly and stops instantly (well, at least REALLY, REALLY fast). This equates to bass that has definition and accuracy, rather than be "boomy" and "flubby" as is more prevalent with dynamic drivers. The Quasi-Ribbon bass and midrange drivers, paired with the True Ribbon tweeter, deliver accuracy, nuance, and detail that is difficult to compete with without spending a LOT more than you would the Magnepans. My only concerns so far are the aforementioned room reflections being mishandled, such that I get phase cancellations, ruining the frequency response and sound, in general and the poor frequency range when it comes to the bass and sub-bass (they only go down to 40hz). This means that I'm going to have to place them very carefully in my listening room (the basement) and possibly treat specific walls with foam padding and then get a subwoofer (I'm looking at the Rhythmik L12 (http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html) with my current budget.
The dealer that I'm visiting has a plan where you can upgrade your speakers (that you buy from them, of course) within one year and get your full money back of the speakers you are upgrading from. So, this would allow me to purchase the EXTREMELY affordable MMGi's, at $650/pair, and then later, after I've gotten my pay raise at work and saved up some money, upgrade to the 1.7i's, which are $2,000/pair. I MIGHT audition the 3.7i's just to see how much of a difference there is between it and hte 1.7i's, but I can't afford the $6,000/pair pricetag. But that means that I'll spend, on what I would consider end-game (or very near that) components of my HIFI system, $2,500, which includes the L12 subwoofer. That's $1,000 less than I was intending on spending/saving up for AND I get to own the MMGi's while I save up for the 1.7i's.
I guess my question to you guys is, what are your opinions on Magnepan speakers? What have been your experiences? Am I right in my assessment of their qualities, both bad and good? And ultimately, do you think that Magnepans are a good match for my particular sonic requirements?

Thanks in advance!
128x128hotboi
16 responses Add your response
mcreyn
293 posts
 
I have owned multiple Maggies from the SMGa to the 3.5, which I still have.  Maggies are not an “accurate” speaker.   What they are is a very musical speaker that people either tend to love and stick with or be ambivolent about.   Without listening, you really won’t know, as their sound signature is unique.

I caution you against getting caught up in “accurate/flat” in looking for speakers. There is no completely flat and accurate speaker and those that are closest (i.e. real studio monitors) tend to make most music sound pretty bad, as most is mixed poorly.  You are far better off finding speakers you like the sound of than worrying about “accuracy”,

You make no mention of the rest of your component plans. Your amplifier needs to work well with your speakers.  Maggies need a good amount of power and your receiver will not provide it.  The Mirages you have are a good speaker, but are also very insensitive (82.5 db/w) plus their impedence drops to 5 ohms in the bass.  As such you are not getting the best from them and I suspect some of the shortcomings you are finding come from your front end. 

If it were me, I would start from the other direction, Source, Dac, preamp, and amp.  Emotiva and Schiit both make excellent products for fair prices, or with research, good deals abound on the used market.  I would look at investing $1500-3000 in your front end before buying speakers.  $500 in room treatments can also make an amazing difference (look at GIK Acoustics). 
hotboi's avatar
hotboi OP
1 posts
 
"Maggies are not an “accurate” speaker."
I found a different conclusion.
https://hometheaterhifi.com/reviews/speaker/floor-standing/magnepan-magneplanar-mg-17-flat-panel-quasi-ribbon-full-range-speakers/ The speakers are very flat in the mid to treble range. The bass measured high because of room reflections, according to the author. "I think that the distortion measurements at the low frequencies in this graph do not accurately reflect the true amount of distortion (I believe it is lower, as I didn’t hear any noticeable distortion in the lows or mid/lows)."
"I caution you against getting caught up in “accurate/flat” in looking for speakers. There is no completely flat and accurate speaker and those that are closest (i.e. real studio monitors) tend to make most music sound pretty bad, as most is mixed poorly. You are far better off finding speakers you like the sound of than worrying about “accuracy”,"
I know that there is no perfectly accurate speaker and I know full well that most recordings could sound bad on a system based on transparency. But as I stated in my original post, I want a transparent system so that I have options. Namely, the ability to listen to a well produced album with no coloration from my system and if a record isn't produced well I'll simply DSP it until I enjoy it. You can't have the best both worlds, like my future system, if you purchase gear that is already, intrinsically colored.
"You make no mention of the rest of your component plans. Your amplifier needs to work well with your speakers. Maggies need a good amount of power and your receiver will not provide it. The Mirages you have are a good speaker, but are also very insensitive (82.5 db/w) plus their impedence drops to 5 ohms in the bass. As such you are not getting the best from them and I suspect some of the shortcomings you are finding come from your front end."
110 watts per channel into 8 ohms should be enough drive the MMGi's, at the very least.

"If it were me, I would start from the other direction, Source, Dac, preamp, and amp. Emotiva and Schiit both make excellent products for fair prices, or with research, good deals abound on the used market. I would look at investing $1500-3000 in your front end before buying speakers. $500 in room treatments can also make an amazing difference (look at GIK Acoustics)."
I see what you're saying, but I disagree. The receiver should power the MMGi's just fine.
david_ten
5,480 posts
 
In support of @mcreyn who I do not know...

I encourage the OP to be open to the very feedback you requested. You asked the following:

I guess my question to you guys is, what are your opinions on Magnepan speakers? What have been your experiences?

Yet you discount perspective from an owner of multiple Magnepans.
tls49's avatar
tls49
1,351 posts
 

"The woofer simply can handle only so many watts of power before it starts to clip (don’t worry, I’m not frying them)."

I agree with mcreyn.

If you have encountered any problem with the current Onkyo/Mirage setup, the issue is the speakers are underpowered. That speaker has an extremely low sensitivity, as stated by mcreyn, so any full range music played with even a somewhat high volume will cause the Onkyo to reach it’s maximum output on peaks. Now the sound character of the Mirage may not be what you want, but keep in mind that the MMGi is only 0.5 db higher in sensitivity, so for practical considerations, the same. You would still have the same problem playing at a moderately high volume.

kalali's avatar
kalali
1,977 posts
 
Contrary to what you said, in my experience the Magnepans have an extremely poor horizontal dispersion and will also require careful attention to the choice of amplifier and cabling in order to make them sound good. They also require significantly more space around and particularly behind them and are less sensitive to sidewall reflections. Its good you're planning to audition them first before making a commitment . Let us know how you make out.
simao's avatar
simao
1,819 posts
 
I had the 3.6R's for several years before a fire sale forced me to let them go. I loved them! They had a huge and deep soundstage. No, they didn't pinpoint image the music. And no, they weren't "fire and forget" speakers; I had the luxury of being able to put about 5' of space between them and the back wall and then a tone of space between them and the side walls. I also upgraded the crossover, too. But I had to fuss around with their placement and the placement of furniture, etc, to get what they're capable of.

But all that notwithstanding, they were a rich tapestry to listen to. The music was There, enfolding me. It was a very detailed, very layered Impressionist painting as opposed to a Photo-realism canvas. But that's more my style.

I powered them with a ARC VS-110. Then, for kicks and giggles, I hooked them up an old Onkyo (I forget the model, but it was a run-of-the-mill receiver, probably in the 90-100 watt range) and the music just fell flat. Paper thin sound stage; no presence; just the music projected without any clue. It wasn't any component's fault; rather, it was simply that the Onkyo wasn't designed to convey music in the way the Maggies were designed to present it.

So @mcreyn is right. Your Maggies will only be as pleasing as your upstream components. Not to be judgmental, but in terms of your Mirages and possible future Maggies, your Onkyo is ancient. You might start with a better, dedicated 2 channel integrated and see how that transforms your Mirages. Otherwise, once you hook up your Maggies to the Onkyo, you're going to be disappointed.
lostbears's avatar
lostbears
538 posts
 

 If the dealer you are going to visit is Audio Consultants, I would not judge the speakers on just what you hear. They are notorious for not setting demo speakers up properly. Maggies can be excellent sounding speakers with proper setup and amplification. But not if they are lined up against a wall.

 There is another stereo store just west on Dempster in Morton Grove called Quintessence Audio. Well worth a visit if you have the time. They have dedicated listening rooms with the gear properly setup.




pawlowski6132
592 posts
 
It's a good thing to OP knows everything. Geez.
mcreyn
293 posts
 
hotboi,

"A little learning is a dangerous thing ;Drink deep, or taste not the Pierian spring :There shallow draughts intoxicate the brain,And drinking largely sobers us again." Alexander Pope.

I think you are in the position where you have done some reading, but have not yet read enough to get the full picture. The receiver you have is rated at 110w/ch into 8 ohms, it is not rated for speakers below 6 ohms (turn it around, it says so right on the back). This is because it lacks the ability to provide the necessary current into lower impedance loads. In this case it lacks the ability to drive your current Mirage speakers properly as will for Magnepans.

Just as building a house, unless you have a good foundation, the final product will not be good. Here, Maggies, or any decent speaker, will reveal the weaknesses in your front end. You are using a computer, but don’t mention a dac, so presumably you are using the analog output from the built in dac on board, virtually always a very poor sounding dac. You are then going to a receiver which lacks the ability to drive your current speakers properly, nor will it drive Maggies properly. Without fixing this, you will merely be trading from one speaker to another without fixing the underlying issue and will not be happy with any speaker you purchase.

You don’t have to spend a lot to fix this issue. With Emotiva, you can purchase their Pre-amp DAC (PT-100) for $299 and their A300 Amp for $399. For $700 plus cables to connect it all (check out "Worlds Best Cables" on Amazon or Blue Jeans Cables for good quality inexpensive cables) you will now have a front end that will adequately drive your current, as well as any new speakers (not I say adequate, typically large Maggies benefit from gobs of power, many like 500w/ch into 4 ohms or more). This is not the end all, be all front end, but a quantum improvement over what you have and 80-90% of what spending $5,000 would get you.

Until you are willing to spend some money on the foundation, it won’t matter whether you buy the $699 MMGi or $6,000 3.7i, neither will work properly.

I believe if you to were ask here which people would choose, a pair of 3.7i with your receiver, or the MMGi with the inexpensive Emotiva, virtually all would choose the MMGi. You may want to consider what many are telling you and the experience they bring to the table.

Finally, don't let yourself get too sidetracked by measurements.  Objective measurements can tell us a lot, but not nearly everything.  Some measurements correlate strongly with how a component sounds, others not at all, and there sound attributes we just don't know how to measure.  In the 70s-80s, the industry got sidetracked into making components and speakers with the lowest possible distortion and the result was a lot of poor sounding equipment.  In the 90s, Velodyne made a set of speakers that had the lowest distortion measured and were extremely "accurate".  They sounded like garbage and nobody bought them.  
seanheis1
624 posts
 
The OP starts several threads a day over at reddit /audiophile. His questions seem earnest and thoughtful, but when advice is given he gets defensive and combative if they don’t agree with his already made up conclusions...basically a form of trolling. 




schubert
7,386 posts
 
Having owned 4 prs of Maggies and having heard  many others I know no receiver  will drive Maggies "just fine " 

audioman58's avatar
audioman58
4,134 posts
 
Maggi I owned several 
until you fix the crappy frames that fed like a sail,
putin good fuses and rebuild the pathetic cheap Xover 
they are respectable but night and day better 
when rebuilt magnastands a much better rebuilds 
the best by far are the custom ones  Verastarr makes,
known for their excellent cables if you have the $$  you take your 3.6 to well beyond the 20.1 rebuilt from the hardwood frames to top quality external Xovers. If you want to see what is possible.
mcreyn
293 posts
 
Seanheis1.  Thanks for the heads up.  
elevick
2,636 posts
 
Schubert is dead on.  I've owned MMGs (cheap) and 10.1's and have played with others.  The bigger the Maggie, the more power you  need, lots of power.  Also, if you think you don't have bass now just wait. 
This sounds like the beginning of a long journey to Maggies, then a new amp & pre, then a nice sub and on and on...
Have fun-it is a hobby.
p.s. Saturday Audio in the northern suburbs is great.  Laid back guys who won't push you.  They just like music.
roberjerman
4,319 posts
 
The OP would be better off just getting Beats headphones to plug into his Onkyo AV receiver.
pawlowski6132
592 posts
 
Very funny!! roberjerman

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