Anyone famaliar with the manufacturer,and in particular this pre amp.The credentials and testimonials seem impressive.The advertised 10 day audition is appealing.
Gammajo thanks for the input on my pinging or i should say microphoning. Will try what you mentioned. Did you mean lifting the pcb that the tubes mount to? Going to play with it tonight. The 2.1 with cca tubes makes this already fine preamp a killer preamp. And i am not even using the balanced inputs. Do you guys have balanced units. If so whats your thoughts. The pinging is bothersome only when changing lps. I just might blow off dealing with pinging tonight and just relax and play some good old classic rock and roll. thanks again Gammajo
While I am getting more tube warmth the new version does lack in the one area Sherod keeps bringing up - "breath of life". I like that phase.
Tvad calls it 3D or musical. Thus far, after near 100 hours of burn in, my unit excels in many pure audiophile terms like powerful bass, transparancy, inner detail, imaging, stage size, instrument space and position, clarity at all volumes, purity etc...
It is so much better in these areas that it blew me away. This is all good. Over time I have to agree with Sherod, the newer version is weaker in "breath of life". Combined, all these differences make for a very different sounding preamp.
Perhaps burn in will ultimately bring this attribute to the music.
Sherod, yes it is. Really want to hear what Victor has to say. I assume they know the "end" result after complete burn-in. I assume they know if the sound becomes more tube like and as you say has "breath of life"
Easy Sherod, you'll get there in due time, I know about patience, it's one of my non-virtues !
Mark, enjoyed your post, it's comforting to know the AH 2.0 is in good standing with a reference preamp as the AR REF 3.
That says a LOT about the AH 2.0, but I bet the gap "would close" with a 2.1 fully-broken-in (2 weeks solid) put to the test.
I see it like this, the REF 3 is the latest factory incarnation available from AR at this time and the AH 2.1 is Joseph's latest factory incarnation available, that would really put things into perspective.
Please be gentle with me my audiophile friends. I am considering to buy the Rogue 99/ Halcro Mc20 to drive my LFT ET8bs. I owned the Bp26/ 4BSST/ Paradigm S2 and sold them all in a month. Huge soundstage but kind of flat and imaging is not quite "there". I love dipole sound and settle down for the ET8Bs that I consider my reference speakers that I will build my system around. In short, Would the TP2.1 better than the 99 in term of sound stage and imaging ? I understand that the 99 only sounds good when cranking up to high level of listenning. So many good testimony, I am tempted to place a call to order the TP2.1. Give me some good reasons, please.
Gentlemen,this thread is smokin.As you may recall I acquired a REF 3 several weeks ago and have been auditioning and comparing with my TP 2.0nB.Time to share my impressions. The system: SOURCE:Denon 3910,fully modified by Audio Reference Mods INTERCONNECTS:RCA silver handcrafted one metre length PRE AMPS:AH TP 2.0nB/REF 3 INTERCONNECTS:Silver Bullet 6 XLR's AMPLIFICATION:Cary V12,modified by Sounds Good To Me(really) SPEAKER CABLES:ZU Bi wire SPEAKERS:Innersound EROS 3 Electrostats (passive version) POWER CORDS:Several after market power cords none of which is expensive or exotic.
To particularize the tube complement in the AH is a quad of Siemens NOS ECC81.Power cord is a simple Belden one metre length. Tube complement in the REF 3 is the a quad of Sovtek 6H30P dual triodes plus a 6L6GC and 6H30P in the power supply. Power cord is factory issue and the size of a small Anaconda I might add. Both pre amps were auditioned on a variety of my favourite recordings. FINDINGS: 1.The REF 3 gets everything right,from the strike of a piano key to the pluck of a guitar string.On live recordings there is just more information,in one instance the distinct variations in the pace of the audience hanclapping was evident.A ring of a cell phone and the chuckle of a band member,although subtle was audible. 2.There is a sense of utter poise to the music,the performance is effortless,kinda like Roger Federer on the tennis court.Dynamics are fast and rich,timbres deep and profound.The timing and texture of presence and aliveness is seductive. 3.The balance control is a neat feature,also the remote,now I don't have to rise as often to adjust the volume or pour another glass of wine. 4.Build quality,fit and finish are superb which I would expect from AR,and so it is with the AH. 5.In both units the bass is authoritative and accurate,I could discern no audible difference.The REF 3 shines in the mid and upper ranges it's like uncovering another layer of music,just that little extra level of detail. In terms of low noise floor both units exhibited dead black silence. Soundstaging and presentation went to the REF,but not by much. WHAT DO I KNOW: 1.I know the REF 3 is 4 times the $$$$ of my AH.I find that the REF 3 is superior in the overall presentation of music. I am of the opinion that side by side blind immediate comparisons would bear this out.Having said that,I believe,taking into account your comments,that if I upgrade my unit to the TP2.1 status ,splurge on a quad of Siemens cca's,and upgrade the power cord that the performance would equal the REF 3 and I would still be ahead about $5K. 2.There is something endearing about AH,Joseph Chow and his trusty left winger that appeals to me.I want these guys to make it and I'm very content to stay in this famalia. 3.I believe I can make improvements elesewhere in my system that will give me a bigger bang for the buck. I hope you enjoyed the read,it was my first time.
strltrains - also take off the rubber dampers and see what it sounds like. It should be much more lively and dynamic. My cca's were very much better without dampers. Of course you have to watch for microphonics, but floating the circuit board or slightly and gentley widening the pins may do this if needed without damping the sound.
I have had my 2.1 upgraded from 2.0 for two weeks now and I do find it does many things better then the original version. I have outlined these things in my posts.
The unit is to my ears quite different sounding from the 2.0. I do miss some of the warmth of the 2.0. My unit must have 80 hours or so on it now. It would be very nice to have both versions at once to A/B. My speakers tend to be on the warm side as well as my front end. The AH cable is on the warm side also. If my dac/transport , wire and speakers were more on the "bright" side of things I could see where my system may be tilted to the bright or in-your-face side of things.
With the balance of my current system the upgraded 2.1 works well. I know the unit is still changing as I am playing a couple of disc's over and over as the unit breaks in.
I will post more on the chages after 100 hours like Sherod.
Got the CCAs today opened up 2.1 and i must say the layout is superior. Removed the ecc88s that Joseph included cleaned and used the smallest amount of walkers sst on the pins. Joseph had small rubber dampers on the 88s so i put them on the CCAs and installed them in 2.1. Right off the bat the difference is quite audible. I was told that 80 plus hours will be needed for the nos CCAs to get well broke in. The only thing i have noticed is a ping from the left side when you tap 2.1 that wasnt there with the 88s. Now i think i understand what all the excitement is about with siemens CCA tubes being used with Audio Horizon gear. Sherod hang in there your going to be alright with your upgrade give it some time to work into your system and enjoy the music.
Only mental notes. I would like to have the two preamp versions side-by-side, but I will know in due time if I prefer this upgraded version to the old. So far, the new version does some things better, but the "breath of life" is still not quite there. The preamp has roughly 70 hours on it at this time. Thirty more to go.
Joe, I realize that the auditory memory is poor, however, being a musician and being very familiar with the live sound of instruments,I remember what the each preamp gave me in terms of reproducing recorded instruments which I am familiar with. I am going to continue listening nightly to my "new" preamp as it continues through its break-in towards the 100 hour mark. Stay tuned.
I just have to toast your auditory memory. You are listening throughout a 100 hour break-in and still remembering what the unmodded 2.0 sounds like for comparision. I would have to have the units side by side and do my comparisons that way unless the differences were very dramatic. I am very interested in your impressions as the units break in fully - that will determine whether I take the plunge. Perhaps I will compare my unit directly to a new 2.1. to get a flavor of what the ungrades will do. I use the balanced outs.
Bill, I have tried a couple of the AH interconnects and preferred a cable mix that I already had. I am still using an AH Premium( original) power cord version in my system with good results, though. I can't use the XLR outputs because my amp is only single-ended and all the rest of my ic's are single-ended as well. I would imagine that the XLR set-up would be quieter.
I would agree with Tvad. I know from experience his wire takes a long while to fully break in. I think he uses the same wire in the wire harness.
Sherod, my unit is sounding amazing! Have you ever tried AH wire? It may be worth a try. Just start with an IC and see. Perhaps AH can send you a fully burned-in one to try!
I use the XLR in and outs on my preamp and wonder if you do Sherod?
Stltrains, if you have bought a good set of early 60's Siemens CCa, hopefully prior to their change-over to another owner( @ 1965-66), with the grey plates, etc. you are going to be amazed at the magical portrayal of music. You'll especially notice this in locations 1 and 3. You might consider keeping Joseph's Siemens in 2 and 4 locations. I actually preferred the one pair of CCa's in mix with a later A-frame Siemens E88cc.
Bill, the preamp just passed the 59 hour mark and I'm starting to get a glimmer of light at the end of the tunnel. A smidgen of life, warmth and body along with increased micro dynamics and transparency is setting in...but just a smidge. In my e-mail exchange with Victor, I mentioned that "breath of life"( one of my fave phrases) which was lacking. He explained that what I'm hearing is the natural compression and lack of air that is evident due to the lengthy break in until everything suddenly clicks in within the 100 hour mark. Apparently, the preamp will continue to further improve well after the 100 hours, but it will take up to the 100 hours just to get that "breath of life" which I'm missing. We'll see.
I am also under the understanding that the trial period is 30 days , not 10. I also know Joseph would give longer then 10 days if asked for break-in.
Sherod, you are right about a more revealing cable revealing more of the break-in. Not sure if Joseph burned my unit in for a time or not. I do know it continues to sound better - more body and warmth to my ears with each day of additional burn-in.
I am loving all of the new detail and transparency.
I know that my upgraded preamp had no burn-in time on it. The minute Joseph finished the upgrades, he popped it into a box and got it on the first Fedex truck so that he could catch his flight to Denver for the RMAF show. I'm not complaining. It was either that or wait until he returned from the show to do the upgrade and return it to me then. Another week's delay would have killed me. I haven't heard from anyone of receiving anything but a new unit when they order from Audio Horizons, unless it's specified that its a demo unit, which I've only seen one up for sale recently. Then again, for those few preamps that are returned to Joseph, he's got to do something with them to resale. As to if he refurbishes them to be as new when he resales is another question. Victor is getting recuperative rest today after an exhaustive time at the RMAF show with Joseph. He just e-mailed me and told me soon that he would be posting here to clarify some things about the new preamp upgrades as well as tell us all some good news about some contacts he and Joseph made at the show.
"Oh, the life of the continuously upgrading audio hobbiest. If only I could leave well enough alone sometimes." Sherod if this is not the audio truth i dont know what is. I think its the explorer in guys that drives us to this end. On the CCAs i understand your concern, with the cost of those tubes. Am i correct 10 thousand hrs for a NOS CCA, thats a long time. Mine came today but i wasnt home to sign for them. Tomorrow i will be finding out what the CCA magic is all about. Your quote above qualifies, the siemens that Joseph supplies with 2.1 are sounding very good. but i have to explore. I love this hobby and quest for the best sound i can afford. If you chime in Victor how did it go at RMAF.
Bill(Grannyring), I suppose, because of your extreme enthusiasm after just 30 hours for the upgrade, it caused me to wonder after my first 30 hours with the unit. When you mentioned that the preamp is revealing of all the cables preceding it, I would agree, but at the same time, in my opinion, the more revealing the cables, the easier it is to hear the break-in of the preamp. I don't think that my cables are an issue here. I have gone through a gazillion cables these last few years and feel that I have some amazing cabling in my system. If anything, my interconnects are ever-so-slightly on the warm side of neutral, which is preferable to me than on the other side of neutral. After 54 hours, the sound is definitely much better than at the 30 hour mark, however, the overall sound is still lacking in some body and upper extension. Victor told me that this should start to fill in when approaching the 100 hour mark. At this time, there is still a slight homogenization of the sound with a dullness in the palpability of the music. Again, Victor said this is due to the combination of the new wiring harness( In his words, Joseph's new harnesses take "a long time" to break in), the new output caps and the extensive mods to the power supply. I recall my original TP 2.0n version having a much smoother transition in its break in than this upgraded version. At this time, because the sound is improving, I will give it the benefit of the doubt and let it go through its 100 hour or so period. I am leaving my preamp on 24/7 and only listen to music when I get home from work for 4 or 5 hours. I hate leaving my preamp on continously because it is reducing the lifespan of my precious Siemens CCa tubes. Oh, the life of the continuously upgrading audio hobbiest. If only I could leave well enough alone sometimes.
Good idea, Tvad. Maybe Victor will address this in their website or on this thread soon. I had thought that the trial period was 30 days. Maybe that applies to their cables. Victor, it might be time to clarify some issues to eliminate the vagueness of some things.
Tvad my audition 2.1 had 50hrs on it according to Victor. There operation is so customer friendly that its a super pleasure to deal with Joseph and Victor at Audio Horizons.
I might have been premature in posting an impression. I just received an e-mail from Victor and since Joseph does extensive mods to the power supply along with the new wiring harness and output caps, Victor told me to hold off for at least 100 hours to make an impression. It just passed the 54 hour mark, so there is a ways to go. I'll be patient and give it more time.
I would like Victor or someone to help us understand what they have found for burn-in time and changes one can expect over that time.
Sherod, I find I am in agreement with your overall comments on the improvements and also what seems to be missing. More burn in gave me back more of the roundness and warmth to the music. However changing the cabling before the pre really made everything come together. I use the same cabling Joseph does - at least I think I do. I use 100% AH Transparency cabling throughout my system including power cords. I think AH uses the same and voices the preamp based on this wire.
These cords have more body and fullness then many others I have owned. The Music Metre Fidelus digital cable I used to use had more detail and a front row seating position. It worked very well with older 2.0 version. However, the more laid back and full sounding AH now works much better in my system. I have all of the fullness and life I used to have plus now I also enjoy the improvements you noted.
Seems to me the updated preamp has changed pretty dramatically and what used to work for cabling in one's system now may not. I know this will mean more time and effort for ideal system matching for some - yikes!!
I am pretty confident my comments are on point and would love to hear comments from Victor or Joseph.
Sherod, that is most interesting. I did not notice the same increase in volume as you. For me it was very slight. For me the things you are missing came when I put in a new digital cable. Now I tried the new digital cable after more burn in then yourself. It can be that burn in really helped.
Give it more time to settle in and see what you find around the 50 hour mark. Hope you find it more to your liking as that is the point of the upgrade.
Well, I have about 32 hours on my upgraded Tp 2.0 to 2.1 preamp. So far, I'm not too impressed. The sound initially is much louder( more gain) with a larger soundstage and a more up-front presentation. Soundstage does indeed seem to be more 2-dimensional than previously experienced. Transparency seems to be improved with better delineation of detail. You can hear more background information(i.e. handclaps, individual instruments, singers) but my ears are missing some aliveness. The presentation I had previously with the 2.0 version gave me a sound that gave musical instruments and voices a "breath of life" sound that I'm not getting with this new upgrade. Stay tuned for more input after further break in.
I received my upgraded TP 2.0 prreamp this morning. I just hooked it up into the system and turned it on a few minutes ago. Way too early to give listening impressions as the preamp will probably need a few days to settle in, but initially, the first thing that I noticed is an increase in volume. I am getting the same volume at the 8 o'clock position as I was before at the 10 o'clock position before the upgrade. Did anyone notice this volume increase? I wonder if maybe the gain might be too much. I'll reserve impressions until a few days have passed. I will ask Victor about the gain when he and Joseph return and get re-settled from the RMAF show. I'm sure that they'll need to time to regroup. I do hope that they make some good contacts to help further the growth and expansion of Audio Horizons. I wish only the best for these gentlemen.
Bill, I agree with your assessment about the preamp being so revealing. I loved my un-upgraded 2.0 so much that I couldn't imagine it getting much better, but when I put a Fusion Impulse copper/silver foil power cord on it, I was in heaven. If heaven sounds better than this then take me now, dear Lord. (<;
Gammajo, I mean the digital cable between the DAC and transport. I am sure the IC between a DAC/CD player and the preamp would also have a huge impact. Any cable or source before the preamp was the nature of my post.
It is always hard to put into numbers or percentages how much better a piece of gear sounds in a system. If I were to try I can say with assurance it is not some small single digit improvement here. It would be in the order of 20-35% better for me.
Bill - Thanks for the detailed post. I am glad that you were rewarded so well for taking the chance at upgrade when the original sounds so good. I may well do the same after your experience. I am uncertain what you mean about digital cable. Are you talking about preamp to amp connect or something else, such as I use a 12Is between my Transport and DAC. Joe
Well I have some additional comments on my updated TP2.0 preamp.This unit is more revealing then ever of the source component and any changes one would make in cabling.
I use a Music Metre Fidelus digital cable because in the past it has outperformed my AH Transparency digital cable in my system. This is no longer true.
The AH digital cable now sounds better in my system. My prior review was based on the Fidelus cable. With the AH digital cable my sytem has all of the positive attributes I pointed out in my initial review. All the same improvements, but there is more now!!
More weight and dimension to the sound. More tube warmth is coming through without any loss of detail or transparency. Music has more body and texture. My goodness all of this mated with the purity on this preamp. Great combo folks! The stage is even larger with greatly improved front to back depth. Bass has more power and impact yet!! Wow!!!!
I am so pleased with the improvements.
The performance of this preamp in one's system will always be outstanding. However understand this, I have found the updated 2.0 more revealing of other components ahead of it. Change a cable and BAM it may float your boat even more! It did for me.
Bill, Mt preamp isn't due to arrive until Mon. or Tues. Once I get it hooked up and playing for a day or so, I'll give everyone my impressions. I am curious to see what announcement Victor has to make regarding the upgrades. He and Joseph are at the RMAF now in Denver.
Sherod, I have been busy at work and have only added another 10 or so hours of listening and burn in. Still the very same reaction and loving the improvements.
Will have more time this weekend. I will let it play 24/7 again starting Friday night.
I think yours is due back today? Let me know your thoughts please.
I would like to know all the "new" changes Joseph performed on my unit. I see Victor says they have some new modifications now and it seems he will make an announcement. Interesting........
Ouch, Rx8man! I hope the buyer is being understanding. It's amazing how much damage can be done by the Fedex and UPS guys. I am going to file a claim with fedex on my preamp, but don't know if they'll pay. I've read some nightmare claim stories here in these threads. I hope UPS will rectify the problem for you and the new owner of your VAC monos.
Well, folks. Joseph just finished my 2.1 upgrade and has shipped out my preamp. I expect it to arrive early next week and can't wait to listen to it. Man, I'm glad that I've developed patience over the years. I sure do miss my preamp. By the way. If you do return something back to Joseph for an upgrade, mod,etc., make sure that you pack it well in the original double box that Joseph shipped it to you in the beginning. I accidently threw mine away and packed it well in a single box. Leave it to our friends at Fedex to damage the faceplate and power knob. The face plate looked like it had been hacked with an axe a few times. Cost me $50.00 to replace. Oh, what a stupid I am...
Sherod i was talking to the wife about the RMAF and being from a area thats some what lacking in audio stores i am giving serious thought into making nexts years show. I would love to be able to have a better perspective of audio gear thats available. After 40 plus years of enjoying this hobby i have never been to a hifi show of any kind. Its on my list of things to do. I sure would like to get a few others in the area to form some sort of a audio get together thing. so far no luck.
Hey, speaking of the Audio Horizons Glee Club( i.e. Markwattkiss), is anyone else going to the RMAF in Denver? I wish I could but work and lack of funds keeps me at home this year. I just blew my discretionary income on the 2.1 upgrade. Maybe next year. If anyone does go, please try to meet up with Joseph and Victor( maybe take some photos?) and report back on this thread next week. Have fun for those who are going.
Well being a saint fan thank goodness i have the best medicine for the pain of going 0fer, our system. My loner AH 2.1 seems to be mating very well with my Nuforce amps and Tyler Linbrook Signatures. This group of components are throwing a super music stage, with detail and definition. Great imaging and musical satisfaction. After yesterdays debacle in the dome we came home put some shrimp on the BBQ and preceded to play some serious rock and roll. Along with our favorite grape juice of course. When we are doing sit down serious listening the source is my analog front end. i just got a very nice copy of King Crimsons Court of the Crimson King. This lp is recorded very nice, and it sounds great in our system. We proceeded to play lps until 10 last night. A good 6 hr music session. No fatigue or drifting just a super evening and night of music. And the best medicine for the saints blues.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
