Sjy425/Audiofun Richardkrebs criticism of the Ultra 5 may be a result of changes he has made to his Technics and Eminent Technology ET2 tonearm, both of which have substantial changes from standard and bear little resemblance to the original designs. Richardkrebs SP10 turntable is radically different from the Artisan Fidelity, it uses a basic acrylic and lead sandwhich for the plinth. With regard to the Eminent Technology ET2 tonearm, Richardkrebs has removed the patented decoupled counterweight mechanism and added lead mass to the arm. The patented split counterweight mechanism is designed specifically to split the bass resonance and reduce distortion by lowering the mass the cartridge sees above FR. One of Bruce Thigpens specific design goals, based on sound mathematical principles and physics, and thorough testing, were intended to keep the horizontal mass as low as possible. Richardkrebs modifications to the ET2 increase distortion as demonstrated on Bruce Thigpens website with properly documented testing. For further information here is a link to the issues involved. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1325551242&openflup&1035&4#1035Richardkrebs issues with the Ultra 5 may indeed be artfiacts of his particular set up and I would encourage readers to try components in their own system where possible. |
Sjy425, thanks for the information on the mono cartridges. I know you can't compare the mono Miyajima and Yamamoto head-to-head but if you had to select (by memory) one to live with.., which would it be?
Richardkrebs; thanks for the elucidation concerning the merits of the Ultra 5's. |
Sjy425
Perhaps I can help with the Ultra 5 question.
I have been using these as a reference for awhile now. I has access to a machine shop, so have been trying to make something that approaches their performance. As you say they are pretty expensive and my goal is to build a foot that I could use throughout my system that was "good enough" but at a lower cost.
So far the Ultra 5s reign supreme... from the upper bass up to the lower treble. In that range they are wonderful with great body and delineation. My efforts have not however been totally in vain.
Deep bass is, slightly, attenuated and ill defined. The same goes for the upper treble. There is also, slight, clogging when the orchestra really gets going. This results in a subtle attenuation of dynamics. These are minor criticisms though. The weighting that is put on these areas would depend on the current voicing of your system and of course your preferences.
Overall I find them to be excellent. |
I have a Yamamoto mono. I have heard the Miyajima Monos and they are wonderful in all their iterations. Currently the Yamamoto is set up on an RS Labs arm which may not be the perfect match, but I haven't drilled a second arm board for the Artisan Fidelity Plinth. Sometimes Ill think wow my Miyajima Shilabe (on my Schroeder arm) must not be set up right and then I realize, oh I'm playing a mono record and I switch arms and it all falls back into place. I guess it's the right tool for the right job. You can't buy a Yamamoto cartridge in the states, but any of the Miyajimas would be great, mono or stereo. I would love to compare them head to head, but alas...these kinds of experiments require a lot of logistics and patient friends who would allow you to use their equipment... |
I understand about not wanting to buy and return but they offer it as an incentive and I would not hesitate to return something if I had no need/use for the item.
The new platter for the MK2 is awesome, I have held it and I was amazed at how the copper and aluminum (gun metal ?) portions of the platter transitioned one to the other. I could not detect the transition from one metal to another with my fingers running over it.
I am planning to run a mono cartridge in one of the arms of the 401, may I ask which mono you are using? |
Alas, listening is the real answer and maybe Music Direct is the way to go. I hate buying and trying and returning, but at these prices, what can a poor boy do? I did get the upgraded platter from Chris, but I have not gotten the "quiet core" bearing yet. It's hard to know where to start and where to stop. I do find that mono cartridges for mono records are amazing! |
Sjy425: Hi, I am sure your A.F. MKII sounds awesome, I mean it is not like your slumming :) I have been interested in the Terra Stone and how it might sound under a set of amps I own.
So as to the Ultra 5's; can't help ya :) LOL. Ok, what I really mean is the table has always had them as part of the package (they were not added later) thus I have no idea of the sound sans the Ultra 5's. I can not intelligently convey what they may add or subtract. As the table weighs anywhere between 170 and I am guessing somewhere south of 200 pounds I am not willing to experiment :)
The good news is that Music Direct carries the Stillpoints and they have a 30 day money back option so.., their really is no financial risk involved (unless you like them :).
My guess it they are doing wonderful things as my table IMHO sounds awesome and Chris does not use junk in his designs. Also I have used Stillpoints (ultra SS I believe) under other gear before and while I do not hold that they bring about changes for the better under every piece of gear, I did like what their usage did in some, perhaps most cases.
Nothing beats listening in your own rig :) Sorry I could not be of more definitive help. |
I have an Artisan Fidelity SP 10 MK II from Artisan Fidelity. Not as high end as yours, but I'm sure more affordable. I love it! It replaced a Garrard 301 and although that was great, this is better! I am using Terra Stones from Eden Sound under it, but I am very curious as to what you think the Stillpoints add/subtract from the sound. They are quite expensive and I haven't yet brought myself to make the leap.
Steve |
Beatlebum: You are correct sir, I now have "Tears of Joy" and this is an awesome work of art. Turns out I had it in the form of CD but was unaware that it was in my possession as a friend had lent me his binder of (CD) picks for fantastic music. I was looking through it this morning and was shocked (pleasantly) to see the title.
I now of course have to get the title on LP if they have it but I must say this CD is recorded EXTREMELY WELL, nothing to sleep on :) |
One thing I missed, the Silencer did perform very very well with my AMR Dac initially, but when I replaced the stock output caps with the Duelund VSF Blacks the Silencer became a very big detractor to the AMR's sound. I never came to a definitive answer as to why that was the case. Interesting to note that the Ayon used Mundorf output caps and I think the stock AMR output caps are an OEM Mundorf device.., so maybe that is it. Perhaps the Mundorfs respond well to the active cancellation whereas the Duelends respond in exactly the opposite manner. |
I have heard that your turntable is one incredibly built machine and built to extreme tolerances.
I found that the Halcyonics (Accurion) had the same effect on all the gear I mentiong above except for the Ayon, and that is a truncation of the decay. It was very apparent and basically shut the music down. I can't speak for other's experiences with active isolation but I found it to be profoundly deletarious to the sound. The Silencer worked on 6 degrees of freedom with 8 sensors but whereas it may be awesome for microscopy, IMHO, not so much for audio.
It is a stunningly beautiful piece of gear and I hated to let them go but I couldn't listen to them and it was a lot of money tied up so off they went :) At least I experienced what they were capable of :)
If you google Halcyonics Silencer you will see some images of a Silencer on a Necreous Blue Bassocontinuo rack with an AMR DP777 on it in one image and others with a Graaf GM200.., that is one of my systems. I was trying different components on the units trying to make it synergize with something, but alas.., my attempts were futile :(
I have thought about a virtual page, but I would not keep it up :) I enjoy more of the occassional posting and reading. |
That all sounds wonderful, Audiofun. I'm surprised by your results with the Halcyonics units, but then, I've never heard them.
I admire your approach into analog. As you can afford one of the best tables, you saved yourself a lot of time and some money by not trying our lesser tables first. The SP10 MK3 is one of the few other tables I considered before buying my rather substantial SME 30/12.
I hear that same sound filling the room all around me while listening to the best recordings. I think this is a result of two things: 1) having a very resolving system, and 2) having the proper speaker/listener relationship to the room. They all have to work together to create a believable presentation, but once you've experienced it, it is very hard to settle for less.
You are right about the turntables that MikeL has tried. There are lots of details on his system page and I find the discussion about his latest tonearm quite interesting. He also has the Anna.
You may also want to contact Albert Porter about arm/cartridge combinations on the SP10MK3. He has tried many and now uses two identical arms with two different cartridges. His and MikeL's are two of the systems I would love to hear someday.
I'd be very interested in learning more about the rest of your system. Have you considered creating a virtual system page? You could update followers in that thread who want to learn more about what you are doing. |
Peterayer:
You mentioned that I entered the world of analog in fine fashion (thank you for that :). I sorta laugh when I think about the way I went about this excursion :) I could have got in at a lower price point to see if it were viable but as I mentioned at the beginning of this thread, my digital has been quite a bit better than most analog I have been exposed to, so I figured I had to start a bit higher. I also considered that by the time I purchased various tables/arm/cartridges and sold them (at a loss) on the way to the next step up I would probably end up spending more (with the losses I would inevitably suffer by selling the gear to be replaced) in the long run than just going for it :)
I am glad I did it the way I did. I am, however, in a funny position when it comes to people asking me about lesser tone-arms or cartridges :) I don't have much to say/contribute because I started with the 4 Point and a MC Anna. I have very little "hands-on" experience with other arms/cartridges. I plan to experiment with the Garrard 401 as the Ikeda arm I am installing has a detachable headshell so it will be easier to experiment with MM and other MC cartridges. I am also installing a Jelco 10.5" arm in the secondary position of the 401 and will probably run a mono cartridge in that position. The Jelco will be rewired of course. This is fun and my older analog buddies are having a good time introducing me to the jazz masters from yesteryear. |
I found the following information on the KAB site extremely interesting:
-----www.kabusa.com/myth4.htm---- |
Hi Peterayer: Thank you :)
I know that Chris built a plinth that was modeled after the original MK3 plinth the SH10-B5 which is a design that has been around for about +30 years, but I do not have that design. I have the NG design and I do not believe it closely resembles the SH10-B5/Porter design/efforts.
Panzerholtz is a cool and material which I found out about..,I believe around 2003 or '04 not sure when searching a database comparing the densities of various woods. It has some incredible properties and lends itself to plinth usage very very well. I started my own speaker design about 10 years ago and it employs Panzerholtz in key locations.
Concerning support, I purchased a Bassocontinuo Arpoge dedicated stand for the table and the table itself rests on 3 or 4 (I have it currently configured for 4) Stillpoints Ultra 5 feet. I have owned 2 Halcyonic Silencers and while they work, I found the active nature of those units to hurt rather help most items. Examples: The Silencer had negative affects on my AMR DP777 (which now has custom Duelund VSF Black caps on the output stage); my former Music First Audio Reference TVC was adversely affected (transformers are electromechanical and very subject to vibration); my Graaf Modena was adversely affected as well. In the end, the only device that responded well, actually very very well was my uncles $12,500 Ayon CD5-S which I was breaking in for him. I opened the Ayon up and I may know why; the CDM2 PRO drive unit is supported by nothing more than 4 metal rods, with NO type of isolation at all, I was a bit shocked at how it was mounted, certainly not what I expected to see in a $13K CD player/dac, just metal to metal with off-the-shelf stand-offs.
I had been in talks with the owner of Minus k before the Silencers arrived and told him I would let him know my thoughts (which I did). I am going to try the Minus k solution to see what results I can obtain. At this point I seem to have no vibrational issues but you never know until you try:) If the Minus k is a big plus, I plan to have a dedicated countersunk stand which I am in the process of designing built to hold the table.
I would like to know what MikeL's findings are with his active solution though I think MikeL has since moved on from his Dobbins SP10 MK3. I think (please correct me if I am mistaken) he went to the Kodo Beat and then the Wave Kinetics NVS.
My table sounds superb (to me) as everything has settled in and now it does that weird holographic thing where images are literally out in the room, I've actually looked to my side and behind me a couple of times thinking something was going on in different parts of the room only to realize it was the systems imaging capabilities.
Next up I plan on the addition of the Kuzma Airline Linear Tracker with a London Reference and I have my Garrard 401 build underway. I had a chance to hear on the Artisan Fidelity Garrard 301's with the Statement Inverted Bearing and Platter (Ikeda 407 + 9TT). The cartridge only had about 20 hours and the arm only 6 hours but it was promising, very good flow with great energy. Literally made me feel like I was at a table at an intimate Jazz set. |
Audiofun, Congratulations on your SP10 MK3. The photographs are beautiful and the plinth that Artisan Fidelity designed seems very well suited for the purpose. I have read many reports about the superior performance of this turntable, particularly from fellow member Albert Porter. I have a local friend who has an SP10 MK2a in one of Albert's Panzerholtz plinth.
In fact, your Panzerholtz plinth seems to be a very similar design to his Porter Plinth that many people use for their Technics turntables. I don't know much about the discussion concerning modifications to these tables, but I have learned a little from this thread about what is involved, and it is fascinating.
I'm curious if you have tried any form of isolation under your unsuspended MK3. Albert and I both use Vibraplane platforms which work very well. MikeL uses an active Herzan platform and reports excellent results.
Welcome to the world of analog. You have entered it in very fine fashion and it seems as though you are really enjoying your LPs. Congratulations again. |
05-13-14: Richardkrebs
Dover
Slick 50? Never. I use Motul as you well know. You have a very short memory. Prior to using Motul, back in the 80's you were recommending the use of Slick 50 oil. At the time I was a high end dealer and we found that Slick 50 oil accelerated bearing wear on some turntables as metal particles adhere to the teflon. I would encourage readers to be wary of non standard oil and additives and fully research them before use. |
Beatlebum: Thanks for the recommendation, I will definitely pick that one up as well! |
Audiofun,
While I enjoy "Meet Me in London" as well I think you'll dig Antonio's "Tears of Joy" even more. Pick it up you won't regret it!
Tim |
To clarify, "Take 5" is one of the cuts on the "Meet Me in London" album. I ordered the vinyl and downloaded the excellent 24/192 digital copy. Once I have the album I will of course compare the analog and digital versions of "Take 5". I will also make a 24/96 copy of "Take 5" using the A/D ability of my AMR PH77 for comparisons.., actually for the fun of it. |
I have just (I am sure I am late to the party) discovered the Naim Label recording "Meet Me in London" with Antonio Facione and Sabina Scuibba. If you don't have this album, you need to get it. I ordered it from the Naim Label site but in the interim I purchased and download the 24/192khz remaster of Take 5.., this is an outstanding cut. My buddy played his album for me about a week ago while at his home listening to his analog rig. I am not sure if the latest album version (original recording was engineered in 1997) is from the remastered digital Master. I read the story on how and why the original 24 track tapes were digitized (which made perfect sense due to the delicacy of the original tapes and the fear that it would not survive the multiple Studer tape runs to remaster in full analog). There is a very good you tube segment on the making of the 24/192khz remaster (I think it is about 24 min in duration) and certainly worth watching.
A LOT of work evidently went into the remastering process with Mr. Facione present to give his seal of approval. You are going to love this album. |
Dover
Slick 50? Never. I use Motul as you well know.
Surely others are growing tired of this hijacking of Audiofun's thread, but I will add one point.
My upgrade works on the motor itself and its immediate surrounds.
No plinth or controller / PS in the world , no matter how brilliantly designed and built, can correct problems that are first caused there. |
Downunder; no doubt you are correct. I was trying to make sure people were aware of what was actually involved with the Krebs Mod and it sort of took on a life of its own. People like you are the EXACT reason I wanted this information to be out there :) It is not about maliciousness in any form or matter, it was and is about delivering information to make known the full story to persons thinking of getting this modification. |
Should this not have its own thread, rather than being hidden inside an Artisan Fidelity TT thread?
I for one am grateful for the additional information on what the modification is/does and the non reversible manner of the upgrade if you do not like the sound after. |
Richardkrebs, From your lack of answers to the questions I raised, I can only assume that you agree that the issues are valid. 05-12-14: Richardkrebs
Does Artisan Fidelity provide before and after resonance plots for their plinth and bearing drain? Artisan Fidelity's website gives a very clear description of the work done. The turntable is not modified with magic oil and other remedies. Clearly they strip and check the turntable to ensure it is operating correctly, including overhauling the power supply and recalibrating it. Considering the age of the Technics now, it would seem prudent to do this work before considering mods. They also give a description of their plinth design adequate enough for customers to make an informed decision. I note that your own SP10 power supply had to go back to Bill Thalman for repair. Can I assume from this that you do not have the capability to overhaul and troubleshoot the power supply in NZ ? I also note from your website that you claim to have dismantled the SP10mk3 motor hundreds of times. In the ET2 thread you stated that the only SP10mk3 in NZ that has had the full mod is your own one. It would appear that you have had your SP10 motor in bits 100's of times ? If so, could you tell us why ? 05-12-14: Richardkrebs
To supply any more detail on my upgrade would risk divulging sensitive IP. This assumes you have sensitive IP to protect. Most owners of sensitive IP, if it is of any value, patent it. I recall you recommending the use of Slick 50 teflon oil additive to turntable bearings many years ago. The result was increased bearing wear. Discussion with Roksan designer Touraj Moghaddam, a fully qualified engineer, a graduate of the University of London, Imperial College London & Queen Mary College, confirmed that the use of this oil can accelerate wear because small metal particles can stick in the teflon, resulting in increased bearing wear. This is an example of damage that can be caused using a product designed for a different application when it is untested and misapplied. In my view the cost of the krebs mod is relatively modest. It is clear that given the well known structural issues that Richardkrebs outlines above, that rather than applying stone age remedies by adding oil gunk and glue, one would be better off eliminating the motor chassis or building a new one that eliminates the structural weaknesses rather than bandaids them. If we examine the structure of the Pioneer P3, Kenwood L07D and look at the Kaneda and Mitch Cotter solutions, is it very easy to design a more rigid motor & platter mounting. Furthermore a review of the error correction logic and parameters should be part of the target for improvement as one of the primary goals of the TT was instant start up and stop times for DJ's. This is not normally a requirement for domestic audio systems. There is much information on this on the web. There is much discussion on this forum about replacing electrolytic caps on old DD turntables. The reality is that electrolytics sitting on the shelf dry up and resistors drift. My own experience with recalibrating power supplies is that even mill spec metal film resistors can drift after only 10 years in the field. So a proper restoration of the SP10 should include a complete rebuild and calibration of the TT motor control boards and power supply, not just cap replacements. |
Dover
The glue that has broken down on random units is the original glue used by technics. As a precaution, if the glue shows any sign of deterioration it is repaired.
I suspect that there are many MK2 motors out there with this problem and their owners are likely completely unaware. We are talking about 30 plus year old machines, a failure like this is not surprising.
The oil I use has been in part of my MK3 motor, continuously, since 1995. It shows no deterioration.
By unedited I mean, I have not altered their comments. This, I hope, is the industry standard.
Does Artisan Fidelity provide before and after resonance plots for their plinth and bearing drain?
To supply any more detail on my upgrade would risk divulging sensitive IP.
Any genuinely potential client can contact me directly for a more in-depth discussion.
I will be adding a new review and more detail on my site shortly. |
A few points on the subject of the Krebs mod - The krebs website has a legal exclusion for any damage incurred in doing the mod. ( see my post above ) The mod is not reversible. Richardkrebs has acknowledged in his post above that some SP10mk2's have had a breakdown in the motor glue 05-03-14: Richardkrebs
Ironically there is a type of glue used in the MK2 motor which on random units has broken down. If required this is repaired when the motor is disassembled. This would suggest that there is a risk of the motor glue breaking down over time after the owner has taken delivery. There are a few other concerns : 05-03-14: Richardkrebs
one part of my upgrade is the targeted application of an organic oil. I can assure you, this oil does not harden, but does stop being sticky, after around 4 months. It then becomes stable and enjoys considerable longevity, it also stops smelling. I first used this material in my electrostatic EHT power supplies back in 1993. A recent check has confirmed that it has retained its elasticity and shows absolutely zero sign of any breakdown or tracking. It is being used as a dielectric in this supply, exposed to 5000 volts.
Ironically there is a type of glue used in the MK2 motor which on random units has broken down. If required this is repaired when the motor is disassembled. I have studied Physics, Chemistry, & Engineering at university and find it curious that one could conclude that if an oil remains stable in an EHT power supply then it would remain stable in a turntable DD motor. These are entirely different applications and have no correlation whatsoever in terms of how the oil performs. 05-11-14: Richardkrebs
in my view, Technics did not pay particular attention to the loop between platter and arm. This in the form of rigidity and resonance control....
My upgrade improves this situation by helping to control resonances in the motor chassis. In standard form it is quite resonant and flexible.
This change produces an immediate and unambiguous improvement. This claim could be easily measured with simple test equipment such as an accelerometer and by putting a frequency sweep resonance through the TT with before and after the mod test results. I note there are no test results provided on the krebs site that support his claims. 05-11-14: Richardkrebs
There are a number of materials used in my upgrade, most of them man made. The organic material used is the same as that employed by Duelund in some of their products. Once dry it is stable and enduring. Again, I find it curious that one would argue that if an organic oil is used in a capacitor, then it would be stable in an electric motor. These are entirely different applications and environments. It is unproven as to how long the product will remain stable in the field. 05-11-14: Richardkrebs
Firstly I will leave it to the growing number of industry leaders who are using my upgrade in their MK2 and Mk3 motors, to attest to the efficacy of my work. Growing number of industry leaders. Richardkrebs, could you advise how many & who are they ? 05-11-14: Richardkrebs
Further while measurements are of great importance, we cannot listen to them. See my web site for unedited customer reviews. Customers cannot post onto the krebs website. Selected customer comments have been posted by the website host, therefore the claim of "unedited" is erroneous. I have heard SP10mk2 before and after the krebs mod and cannot hear any improvement. The sound is different, smoother and gluggy. To my ears it sounds worse. In the ET2 thread krebs agreed with this but claims that over time it will get better. Richardkrebs, perhaps you could advise if the SP10mk2 I heard had the glue breakdown ? As Audiofun points out, customers should be fully informed of any modifications and potential risks so that they can make an informed decision. This information has not been provided thus far on the krebs website. In reading krebs description of the mods above, he still does not articulate precisely what has been done. It is not possible to assess the risks based on the paucity of information provided and therefore Audiofuns sage advice of CAVEAT EMPTOR should be taken on board. |
Concerning the individual with the unit, if they wish you to address it I am sure they will reach out to you. I am not involved in anything they may or may not decide to do with the unit nor am I advising them one way or the other.
I only wrote what I experienced with your modification. If you say the PS does not have this oil applied then I certainly take you at your word and I stand corrected concerning the PS. |
Audiofun.
As before, if this is my work, then clearly something has gone seriously wrong. There is no "plethora of oil slathered around" in my upgrade.
Where it is applied, it is done so for sound, pun intended, reasons.
There is NO oil applied to the power supply. You will recall, I told you this in private correspondence some time ago. If there is, then it is not my work or my agents have gone beyond my design. Something which I would find most surprising.
As I have said, I am waiting for the contact details of your friend so that I can accurately access the situation and will do my best to make it right.
Cheers. |
Sonofjim, I sort of agree with you and have basically said as much. Not that you accused me of saying the MK3 was perfect but since I started this diatribe; I don't believe that the MK3 is perfect, BUT I will say they got closer than most. My concern was that this applied oil was heretofore not mentioned. I wanted people to know what was actually being done to these machines; I feel I have succeeded. I also do not consider this a flame-war (at least I don't consider myself at war with anyone :) but rather an intelligent discourse and as we have both stated, to each their own. People now have the knowledge of what is being done to there MK3's.
I thought I was clear about this but perhaps not, I have no problem with mods on anything, (except molesting air cooled 911's :) I just happened to see the interior of one of these modded turntables. It was an oily mess and that is simply a fact.
So once more, this is not about an inanimate object being sacrosanct, it is about informing people of what is actually happening to their TT's, remember, before this thread, I don't think the core of this mod was public knowledge. I saw no evidence of anything else in the machine other than a plethora of oil slathered around. This is quite a bit different than installing Harmonix or Still Point footers or a better plinth or Hexfred diodes...etc.
Concerning the original Technics Chassis.., yeah, I don't know what they were thinking :) It's like they did all the heavy lifting and then got tired LOL. Or the "A" team finished the hard work and then handed off the final housing design to the "B" team.
One more time.., people now know the deal, to quote Richard himself.., "Caveat Emptor". |
I should have more sense than to jump in on a flame war and I make no claim of engineering genious but here's my opinion.
I'm a big fan of the Mklll. I own two and have enjoyed them every day. One of the best designs ever? Probably. It's too bad they're so hard to find and not available to more people. When I first acquired one I reguarded it as a precious relic to not be blastphemed by further modification and I would understand anyone seeing it that way. My outlook has since changed though and I no longer put it on a pedestal. It is my turntable, a music machine. As good as it was when it was produced there is no creation out there that cannot be improved upon either with new materials, things overlooked or higher quality parts.
If the original Mklll was perfect why would we use after market plinths as Richard mentioned. Why do we strip away the factory chassis for direct mounting and rebuild the power supply using modern parts? One of my Mkllls has even had the sinister Krebs mod to no ill effect I can assure you. I don't think guys like Bill Thalman and Albert Porter would be on board with the mod if it was destroying national treasures. What of Chris Thornton's remarkable modifications to the venerable 301 in his Statement design? Is that desecration? I think it's improvement.
It's up to the individual owner to do what they see fit. If you find a classic car in your grandma's garage you can restore it to factory specs or chop it and hot rod the engine. Either approach is acceptable and neither destroys the car. I choose to optimize performance and not worry about whether I have a museum piece or not. I think the mods in question were well thought out and concerns over this oil have been blown out of proportion. I say do what you prefer and enjoy the music. The Mklll itself is near bullet proof. |
I have the 1985 review on this table as well as the original MK3 Service Manual; the MK 3 is one of the most Stable Accurate Tables in the world even by todays standard so I would say the speed measuring system was always world class/leading. Either way I have read your rebuttal and I don't have much to add.
As I stated, my point was to alert peope that an oil, probably linseed oil was being placed inside their MK3 turntables. As I am sure a great number of people are now aware of this (that an oil is being applied to the inside of the table and I do not mean on bearings but in places that make absolutely no sense to this engineer like the inner wells/walls under the platter of the table and I think on the cricuit boards themselves of the power supply and table internal electronics (at least from what I saw)) fact.
If people want to do this to their MK3's more power to them. I wish you the best. With do respect I really have nothing more to offer related to this topic, I truly believe enough info is NOW out there for folks to intelligently decide for themselves about this modification to the SP10 MK3. |
Audiofun
You raise a valid point in asking what my upgrade actually entails. Prospective customers need this information. You also accuse me of "straw man arguments", something I cannot let slide.
Hopefully I can address both of your points at once.
My upgrade consists of 5 separate but, in some,cases interrelated procedures, on the SP and now other motors. We are talking here about the SP10 motors so, I will confine this discussion to them.
The areas worked on are:
. Motor stator chassis
. Bearing support
. Stator
. Commutation
. Speed sensing
Taking these one at a time:
I first addressed the motor chassis. In spite of the millions of R&D dollars spent, in my view, Technics did not pay particular attention to the loop between platter and arm. This in the form of rigidity and resonance control.
One only need to look at the LO 7d to see how this should be done.
My upgrade improves this situation by helping to control resonances in the motor chassis. In standard form it is quite resonant and flexible.
This change produces an immediate and unambiguous improvement.
I then cast my attention to the bearing. Not actually the bearing itself which is quite good, but not up to the standard of the inverted bearing used in the P3. Again loop rigidity is compromised by the "as built" structure. My upgrade significantly improves this situation. Again this is clearly and unambiguously audible.
Now I started work on the stator. This is where things became most confusing. I made changes that I was sure would be an improvement, but in fact it was actually different and not necessarily better. Pulling apart the motor numerous times over many years in order to solve this mystery led only to frustration. The changes were reversed and reinstalled too many times to count. The stator with the changes in place was electro-mechanically stiffer, but I did not like the effect. The greyness or "Jitter" that I refer to on my web site was even more apparent.
The breakthrough came late in 2011, early 2012 when I turned my attention to the commutation and speed measuring mechanisms. Again with reference to the LO 7d and motors in the JVC line up, I consider the the Technics SPs to be inferior. Even in comparison to their own SL-1200.
As I'm sure you know, precise commutation is mandatory if the goal is low torque ripple. Within the standard architecture the commutation can be made more accurate.
Lastly I worked on the speed measuring mechanism. Again it will be appreciated that accurate speed measurements are a prerequisite to accurate dynamic speed control. As built, I do not consider the SPs to be particularly great in this area and we are perusing greatness. IMO, even the humble motor used in the DD Goldmund studio has a superior speed measuring mechanism. But the SP can be significantly improved.
Working on the last two areas now showed, without doubt, that the stator changes were indeed positive. A motor with the high torque to moment of inertia ratio that exists in the MK3 can easily get itself into trouble if it's controller is not feeding it the correct, corrective signal.
Do I have the resources to objectively measure the effect of these changes. No, but as I said earlier, we do not listen to measurements.
So why bother with the SP10 at all if it has so many compromises? I believe that the motor must exercise absolute control over the platter. While others advocate low torque high inertia drives, my preference is for high torque high inertia. The MK 3 is definitely in the latter camp. It's DRIVE is addictive.
There are a number of materials used in my upgrade, most of them man made. The organic material used is the same as that employed by Duelund in some of their products. Once dry it is stable and enduring.
This brings me to your initial posting on the subject.
As you know, I am endeavouring to contact your friend who owns the MK3.
I stand by my work and that of my agents. If it transpires that it is indeed my upgrade, clearly something has gone terribly wrong and I will do my best to make it right. If it is not my work, I will still try to help him out as, hopefully I can bring some knowledge to the situation.
Cheers. |
Audiofun.
Agree, in the end it is about the music and only the music. |
Richard I do agree that this is a hobby and hopefully we are all getting the most out of our systems and enjoying our music collections. |
Same reason I run later technology tires on my Porsche Turbo, but I nor my engine builder has ever wanted to rub oil in the engine bay or on the engine for that matter :)
Just saying.., there are analogies and then their are classic examples of "straw man arguments". |
Audiofun
"Matsushita had literally tens of millions of dollars at their disposal when they designed the SP10/MK2/MK3..."
I absolutely agree, they did. Why then is the excellent Artisan Fidelity plinth an improvement over the original Matsushita designed plinth?
I mean no malice. We all have our individual opinions and biases, but I know that we share a common love of music. I trust that you will thoroughly enjoy your Mk3 for years to come and that is the great joy of our hobby.
Cheers. |
Correction: I meant to write "I simply wanted the community to be aware", NOT "beware".., my bad. |
I can only speak for my ears, eyes and nostrils. I hear no grey-ness whatsoever with my SP10MK 3 and I have listened to a fully sorted Artisan 301 with the statement bearing and also my excellent AMR DP777 with hi resolution files as well as some truly superb redbook. Also some outstanding Reel to Reel (and to many other world class sources to name) and I can honestly say my SP10 MK3 had none of the grey-ness mentioned. The MK3 I beheld had the mod performed more than a year ago and oil was all over the inner housing and it was not dry except in places where it had hardened like a glue and it certainly smelled bad I would say rancid and this after more than a year.
Matsushita had literally tens of millions of dollars at their disposal when they designed the SP10/MK2/MK3 as this was at the height of the great TT wars of Japan. I would think that if spreading an organic oil on the inner parts of this deck would have been better.., it would have been done.
Again, I am not here to bemoan the point (Dover I do find your views very interesting). I simply wanted the community to beware of what is really happening to your prized SP10 MK3 and I know that should I ever purchase another MK3 (spare) it could NOT have a Krebs Mod. I would not buy a table subjected to that type of modification, but again, that is ok.., that is my choice and others may differ with my opinion; and they have EVERY right to do so. |
Audiofun and Dover.
Firstly I will leave it to the growing number of industry leaders who are using my upgrade in their MK2 and Mk3 motors, to attest to the efficacy of my work. These audio manufacturers are using my worked motors as their analogue LP reference to evaluate their own equipment.
Further while measurements are of great importance, we cannot listen to them. See my web site for unedited customer reviews.
It is an interesting irony that the use of an excellent plinth like the Artisan Fidelity, actually exposes more, the greyness to which I refer. This because the plinth removes so much of the coloration that lesser plinths introduce. The intrinsic coloration of the motor itself is then laid bare. Once this greyness is heard it cannot be forgotten.
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Audiofun, I do agree with you on the need to take care on modifications to collectible equipment. When Technics SP10 owners are contemplating the krebsupgrade they should be aware that there are legal exclusions of liability for any breakages incurred during the modification and that the modifications are irreversible. I quote from the krebsupgrade website - Some Legal Items:
All due care will be taken with your precious motor, however there is a remote possibility that a fragile or previously damaged but still functioning part could fail. In the unlikely event of this happening. We will do our best to repair or replace this part but we cannot guarantee a fix and cannot be held accountable for this failure. FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
If I dont like the upgrade can it be removed?
Due to the nature of some of the materials used the complete upgrade cannot be reversed. It is also of concern that no measurements or objective tests have been provided to support the krebsupgrade claims. I have auditioned a Technics SP10mk2 before and after the krebs modifications. The SP10mk2 sounded smoother but gluggy after the modifications. According to krebs this "gluggy" goes away after several months, but owners should be aware that if they do not like the changes, the mods are irreversible. In my view the modified SP10mk2 is miles away in performance from a standard SP10mk3. In audio as is true in life there are no free lunches. Comparing the krebs Technics SP10mk2 to a standard Kenwood L07D and replinthed and blueprinted Garrard 401; to my ears the Garrard 401 was superior to either the L07D or the krebs modified SP10. In particular the Garrard was more coherent and presented a more integrated sound through the whole musical spectrum. I have also heard krebs own SP10mk3 on numerous occasions from when he first purchased it in the late 80's. I last heard krebs SP10mk3 about 5 yrs ago, certainly since 1995 when he first used the oil. The krebs modified SP10mk3 to my ears has always lacked resolution, transparency and musical coherency compared to my Final Audio VTT1. 04-05-14: Richardkrebs
The SP 10 range in standard from is noisy, not in the conventional sense but noise which is a function of the music being played. There is also a tension, stress if you will, to the presentation and a greyness that over time is downright irritating.
I could not live with a standard SP10 MK 2 or 3. I don't have to, but I very happily live with my worked SP10 Mk 3. Apparently there have been further "claimed improvements" that remove the grey gunge, but I cannot attest to the veracity of these claims. It is noteworthy that Artisan Fidelity in contrast to the Krebsupgrade has a complete list of modifications and test procedures for their SP10 refurbishment and enhancements on their website. |
Richard, thank you for taking the time to graciously expound on this subject. I think your last entry ("caveat emptor") was an appropriate axiom with which to end. |
Audiofun
Re the Krebs upgrade
It was I who contacted you in a genuine desire to help you realise the full potential of your MK3
Indeed, one part of my upgrade is the targeted application of an organic oil. I can assure you, this oil does not harden, but does stop being sticky, after around 4 months. It then becomes stable and enjoys considerable longevity, it also stops smelling. I first used this material in my electrostatic EHT power supplies back in 1993. A recent check has confirmed that it has retained its elasticity and shows absolutely zero sign of any breakdown or tracking. It is being used as a dielectric in this supply, exposed to 5000 volts.
Ironically there is a type of glue used in the MK2 motor which on random units has broken down. If required this is repaired when the motor is disassembled.
I first started development of my upgrade in 1995, where this oil was applied to a specific part of my MK3 motor. Again, to date, it shows no deterioration after the considerable passage of time. I consider my MK3 to be my most precious piece of audio equipment. It is used virtually daily and has been completely trouble free, aside from a failure of the speed control IC. A problem which they are known for.
I would never do anything to this motor which could damage it. I intend to live with my MK3 until my last breath.
Bill Thalmann is the only person authorised to undertake my upgrade in the US. He is a well respected and experienced electrical engineer in the audio field. It is his opinion that my upgrade would actually serve to enhance the reliability of the motor. He has upgraded his on own MK3, obviously in full knowledge of what the procedure entails. Photos of his work on the motor do not look "nasty"
Dave of Sound HIFi in the UK is the other person authorised to undertake the upgrade. He is also a qualified electrical engineer and has designed and built controllers for TTs in the technics range. He also endorses my work, as do customers like Pass Labs and Triplaner.
The specific application of the oil is just one part of the upgrade. Additionally there are structural enhancements made to the motor skeleton and the speed sensor. Along with the obvious, cleaning and re lubing of the bearing, plus for a nominal fee, replacement of the thrust pad, if required.
Anyone who has completely pulled apart a MK3 motor will know that it is a delicate and time consuming task. Considering the hours involved, the fee charged is modest.
There may be modders out there who are indiscriminately applying "organic gunk" to the innards of MK2s and MK3s.
As always caveat emptor
Richard. |
This is a general FYI for SP10MK3 and MK2 owners. When I first received my SP10MK 3 I was contacted by a representative for the Krebs mod here on Agon. The guy was nice enough and we sent a few emails back and forth. As a software developer and degreed Elec Eng I like to know what a mod (at least some tech stuff to consider the efficacy of the intended modification) consists of, I do not need to know the intellectual property behind the modification. In other words a high level explanation of what I am paying for will suffice and I can make an intelligent decision based on what I hear. Examples would be, we rework the PLL's, we bypass key electrolytics, wire is changed in key location to a much better grade, clocks are changed...etc. I resist Magic Black Box changes i.e. you can't tell me anything except that after 100 plus hours it will be better sounding. I mentioned that I knew of a mod where the modification consisted of shooting the SP10 MK3 full of some sort of organic gunk.., for over a thousand dollars. Yes you read that right. I have a number of buddies with TT's and I saw one first hand with one such mod. It was NASTY!!! an oily viscous fluid had been applied to the innards of the MK3 and one buddy stated that is smelled like linseed oil... it was starting to harden and stink. This is a shame as there are very few of these MK3 tables left in the wild. I HUMBLY suggest if a modifier does not stipulate to something like "We DO NOT fill your MK3 full of (xyz) fluid (oil, linseed oil, crisco :)" I would not let them have my table. I am pretty sure I know who did this as I know of at least one of the modders on this table. I am investigating and once I am 100% sure I will share it. I am doing this as a community service. I would personally avoid a modification of this nature like the PLAGUE. Again this is one mans opinion and of course we are all free to do as we please.
SAVE THE SP10 MK3's LOL
ok, I couldn't help but put the last part in, wish I had a bumper sticker. |
Thanks Sonofjim, I will take your advice and obtain those albums you named :) |
The Live in Paris LP is really good. If you like that sonically try a Stockfisch Sara K LP, Waterfalls or In the Groove. These German LPs may be digitally sourced, I really don't know or care. They sound significantly better than any Diana Krall recording ever did and her sadly departed backup guitarist, Chris Jones, was amazing. Seriously, if you don't like these send them to me with the bill. I'll give them to a friend or keep them as a backup. I can send you my address in a PM if needed but I doubt that will be necessary. |
Man this hobby!!!I Think the 401 project is moving forward LOL!!! I will just run both TT's in the same system. The 401 is a beautiful platform and I will be taking my time (what hurry right?) making design decisions about the project.
Ok, back to Diana Krall Live in Paris 45 RPM :) |
I had mentioned I purchased a Garrard 401 for a new project because of what I have read about idlers... BUT, I may have been hasty with my new-found love of analog. I am so happy now I don't think I am going to run 2 separate analog rigs as my NG has 2 arm capability. Thought about long and way later than I should have last night, but even as I type this I think I am abandoning the 401 project... I am sure it would have been sublime, but I think 2 tables in 2 systems is a bit much for me :) guess I got analog greedy for a minute LOL!!! |
Sonofjim; that is awesome. You are going to find the wait worth it! As my analog system components continue to run-in the sound continues to truly amaze me with is depth, layering, quietness of background and grandeur. Considering all of the aforementioned attributes it also continues to imbue a lite ethereal quality when the music posses such traits; a feat I find many products can't replicate (i.e. they can do a few but something always gets left behind). Alongside my Graaf GM70 (one of the finest and rarest phono stages.., the only word is sublime) I've added an AMR PH77 and though just introduced it is sounding absolutely wonderful!!! I will continue to report on the PH77 as I run it in.., the number of features )by remote control or the face plate) is simply astounding! |
Fvcruz: That is awesome to hear been busy with work and then a vacation :) I agree an think that his tables are a real work of art. My Bassocontinuo Apogeo rack arrived and let me tell you it is ridiculously heavy and very beautiful. Each of the 3 main support pillars is nearly 2.5 " and made of solid SS.., must weigh 70 pounds each. I will post equipment a little later :)
Moving the TT to the rack later today when the help arrives. |
