Audiofun
Re the Krebs upgrade
It was I who contacted you in a genuine desire to help you realise the full potential of your MK3
Indeed, one part of my upgrade is the targeted application of an organic oil. I can assure you, this oil does not harden, but does stop being sticky, after around 4 months. It then becomes stable and enjoys considerable longevity, it also stops smelling. I first used this material in my electrostatic EHT power supplies back in 1993. A recent check has confirmed that it has retained its elasticity and shows absolutely zero sign of any breakdown or tracking. It is being used as a dielectric in this supply, exposed to 5000 volts.
Ironically there is a type of glue used in the MK2 motor which on random units has broken down. If required this is repaired when the motor is disassembled.
I first started development of my upgrade in 1995, where this oil was applied to a specific part of my MK3 motor. Again, to date, it shows no deterioration after the considerable passage of time. I consider my MK3 to be my most precious piece of audio equipment. It is used virtually daily and has been completely trouble free, aside from a failure of the speed control IC. A problem which they are known for.
I would never do anything to this motor which could damage it. I intend to live with my MK3 until my last breath.
Bill Thalmann is the only person authorised to undertake my upgrade in the US. He is a well respected and experienced electrical engineer in the audio field. It is his opinion that my upgrade would actually serve to enhance the reliability of the motor. He has upgraded his on own MK3, obviously in full knowledge of what the procedure entails. Photos of his work on the motor do not look "nasty"
Dave of Sound HIFi in the UK is the other person authorised to undertake the upgrade. He is also a qualified electrical engineer and has designed and built controllers for TTs in the technics range. He also endorses my work, as do customers like Pass Labs and Triplaner.
The specific application of the oil is just one part of the upgrade. Additionally there are structural enhancements made to the motor skeleton and the speed sensor. Along with the obvious, cleaning and re lubing of the bearing, plus for a nominal fee, replacement of the thrust pad, if required.
Anyone who has completely pulled apart a MK3 motor will know that it is a delicate and time consuming task. Considering the hours involved, the fee charged is modest.
There may be modders out there who are indiscriminately applying "organic gunk" to the innards of MK2s and MK3s.
As always caveat emptor
Richard. |
Audiofun and Dover.
Firstly I will leave it to the growing number of industry leaders who are using my upgrade in their MK2 and Mk3 motors, to attest to the efficacy of my work. These audio manufacturers are using my worked motors as their analogue LP reference to evaluate their own equipment.
Further while measurements are of great importance, we cannot listen to them. See my web site for unedited customer reviews.
It is an interesting irony that the use of an excellent plinth like the Artisan Fidelity, actually exposes more, the greyness to which I refer. This because the plinth removes so much of the coloration that lesser plinths introduce. The intrinsic coloration of the motor itself is then laid bare. Once this greyness is heard it cannot be forgotten.
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Audiofun
"Matsushita had literally tens of millions of dollars at their disposal when they designed the SP10/MK2/MK3..."
I absolutely agree, they did. Why then is the excellent Artisan Fidelity plinth an improvement over the original Matsushita designed plinth?
I mean no malice. We all have our individual opinions and biases, but I know that we share a common love of music. I trust that you will thoroughly enjoy your Mk3 for years to come and that is the great joy of our hobby.
Cheers. |
Audiofun.
Agree, in the end it is about the music and only the music. |
Audiofun
You raise a valid point in asking what my upgrade actually entails. Prospective customers need this information. You also accuse me of "straw man arguments", something I cannot let slide.
Hopefully I can address both of your points at once.
My upgrade consists of 5 separate but, in some,cases interrelated procedures, on the SP and now other motors. We are talking here about the SP10 motors so, I will confine this discussion to them.
The areas worked on are:
. Motor stator chassis
. Bearing support
. Stator
. Commutation
. Speed sensing
Taking these one at a time:
I first addressed the motor chassis. In spite of the millions of R&D dollars spent, in my view, Technics did not pay particular attention to the loop between platter and arm. This in the form of rigidity and resonance control.
One only need to look at the LO 7d to see how this should be done.
My upgrade improves this situation by helping to control resonances in the motor chassis. In standard form it is quite resonant and flexible.
This change produces an immediate and unambiguous improvement.
I then cast my attention to the bearing. Not actually the bearing itself which is quite good, but not up to the standard of the inverted bearing used in the P3. Again loop rigidity is compromised by the "as built" structure. My upgrade significantly improves this situation. Again this is clearly and unambiguously audible.
Now I started work on the stator. This is where things became most confusing. I made changes that I was sure would be an improvement, but in fact it was actually different and not necessarily better. Pulling apart the motor numerous times over many years in order to solve this mystery led only to frustration. The changes were reversed and reinstalled too many times to count. The stator with the changes in place was electro-mechanically stiffer, but I did not like the effect. The greyness or "Jitter" that I refer to on my web site was even more apparent.
The breakthrough came late in 2011, early 2012 when I turned my attention to the commutation and speed measuring mechanisms. Again with reference to the LO 7d and motors in the JVC line up, I consider the the Technics SPs to be inferior. Even in comparison to their own SL-1200.
As I'm sure you know, precise commutation is mandatory if the goal is low torque ripple. Within the standard architecture the commutation can be made more accurate.
Lastly I worked on the speed measuring mechanism. Again it will be appreciated that accurate speed measurements are a prerequisite to accurate dynamic speed control. As built, I do not consider the SPs to be particularly great in this area and we are perusing greatness. IMO, even the humble motor used in the DD Goldmund studio has a superior speed measuring mechanism. But the SP can be significantly improved.
Working on the last two areas now showed, without doubt, that the stator changes were indeed positive. A motor with the high torque to moment of inertia ratio that exists in the MK3 can easily get itself into trouble if it's controller is not feeding it the correct, corrective signal.
Do I have the resources to objectively measure the effect of these changes. No, but as I said earlier, we do not listen to measurements.
So why bother with the SP10 at all if it has so many compromises? I believe that the motor must exercise absolute control over the platter. While others advocate low torque high inertia drives, my preference is for high torque high inertia. The MK 3 is definitely in the latter camp. It's DRIVE is addictive.
There are a number of materials used in my upgrade, most of them man made. The organic material used is the same as that employed by Duelund in some of their products. Once dry it is stable and enduring.
This brings me to your initial posting on the subject.
As you know, I am endeavouring to contact your friend who owns the MK3.
I stand by my work and that of my agents. If it transpires that it is indeed my upgrade, clearly something has gone terribly wrong and I will do my best to make it right. If it is not my work, I will still try to help him out as, hopefully I can bring some knowledge to the situation.
Cheers. |
In deference to the hard working manufacturers who labour to bring to this boutique market, interesting and innovative products, I would not presume to voice an opinion unless I was sure and up to date with my findings.
The signature sound of the stillpoints is, to me, consistent across a range of components in multiple systems I have personally auditioned. |
Audiofun.
As before, if this is my work, then clearly something has gone seriously wrong. There is no "plethora of oil slathered around" in my upgrade.
Where it is applied, it is done so for sound, pun intended, reasons.
There is NO oil applied to the power supply. You will recall, I told you this in private correspondence some time ago. If there is, then it is not my work or my agents have gone beyond my design. Something which I would find most surprising.
As I have said, I am waiting for the contact details of your friend so that I can accurately access the situation and will do my best to make it right.
Cheers. |
Dover
The glue that has broken down on random units is the original glue used by technics. As a precaution, if the glue shows any sign of deterioration it is repaired.
I suspect that there are many MK2 motors out there with this problem and their owners are likely completely unaware. We are talking about 30 plus year old machines, a failure like this is not surprising.
The oil I use has been in part of my MK3 motor, continuously, since 1995. It shows no deterioration.
By unedited I mean, I have not altered their comments. This, I hope, is the industry standard.
Does Artisan Fidelity provide before and after resonance plots for their plinth and bearing drain?
To supply any more detail on my upgrade would risk divulging sensitive IP.
Any genuinely potential client can contact me directly for a more in-depth discussion.
I will be adding a new review and more detail on my site shortly. |
Dover
Slick 50? Never. I use Motul as you well know.
Surely others are growing tired of this hijacking of Audiofun's thread, but I will add one point.
My upgrade works on the motor itself and its immediate surrounds.
No plinth or controller / PS in the world , no matter how brilliantly designed and built, can correct problems that are first caused there. |
Sjy425
Perhaps I can help with the Ultra 5 question.
I have been using these as a reference for awhile now. I has access to a machine shop, so have been trying to make something that approaches their performance. As you say they are pretty expensive and my goal is to build a foot that I could use throughout my system that was "good enough" but at a lower cost.
So far the Ultra 5s reign supreme... from the upper bass up to the lower treble. In that range they are wonderful with great body and delineation. My efforts have not however been totally in vain.
Deep bass is, slightly, attenuated and ill defined. The same goes for the upper treble. There is also, slight, clogging when the orchestra really gets going. This results in a subtle attenuation of dynamics. These are minor criticisms though. The weighting that is put on these areas would depend on the current voicing of your system and of course your preferences.
Overall I find them to be excellent. |
Audiofun.
While we are on the subject of plinths, I thought that you may be interested in a new photo on my revised, Krebsupgrade web site. This is a brilliantly designed and built silver aluminium MK3 plinth. This from a recent customer. As you can see he has removed the square Technics chassis and only retained the base, motor stator housing. It is an excellent example of intelligent engineering. A thing of great beauty. |
Audiofun
The silver model is aluminum and I think that the wood is cosmetic. Not sure though.
The black triangular version is mine which is acrylic lead acrylic. If I was building it again today ( it is over 2 decades old) I would use different materials.
There seems to be no end to the ways people rebuild their SP10s
But all of them build on the great motor that technics developed way back in the LP glory days. |
Audiofun.
Thanks for that. |
