In my opinion,which I have held for sometime,is that every electrostatic and ribbon loudspeaker manufacturer should own a Manger in their listening setup.This will allow them to resist over playing the transparency card,which mars many a fine planar loudspeaker.
The problem with the Manger lies in the fact that it sounds bad at most times with most setups.It is a task to get them to shine,but when an experienced chap does get it right,few loudspeakers can beat the 103 in every aspect of reproduction, and those few cost at least 2.5 times upwards the price of a 103. |
GBM, Your comment "doesn't have the fog" is a great description of the Manger speaker including the Zerobox 109. Watch for an upcoming rave review!!! btw, tmh audio is the US importer. More info at http://www.tmhaudio.comJim Ricketts/tmh audio |
Oh, Man, you HAD to ask which model it was?? Now, you'd think I'd remember, but I don't. I remember the price was around 9k for the pair, because UPS had to come and inspect the damaged box (man, they must have dropped it from 8 feet high!).
When you hear a speaker that doesn't have any "fog" whatsoever surrounding the instruments, THAT is what live music is like. Unencumbered by any artificial humidity, aka "noise," the sound simply moves through the air. I'm used to good sound, but this was simply exquisite. It's a shame they were damaged, because I couldn't be absolutely sure of the dynamic range/contrast or bass depth or any of that, but for a broken speaker that still played, well....props to the Manger!!!!!!
Who the h is importing these??? I remember that HP, back in issue 112, talked about the Audio Physics Medeas. They were in his Editor's Choice. He found them "dazzling." They used the Manger drivers, as he pointed out. I believe he said they sounded like ribbons without the colorations...
Oops, my bad. I HAD to look it up: issue 109, page 80...
"... Joachim Gerhardt's dazzling Medea, which features on each channel three of the jaw-dropping Manger drivers..." which has "...all the speed, quickness and detail of a great ribbon (which it is not), without some of a suspended-ribbon's flexing FM distortions..."
I think he liked-ed it. |
GM,
I forgot to ask in my last post, which Manger loudspeaker did you hear?
Thanks!
Jim Ricketts/tmh audio |
GB,
You, your brother and I are defnitely on the same page. The realism is what jumps out when you hear any Manger loudspeaker and it's unmistakable.
The Manger louspeaker has caused this SET tubeguy to re-think amplification. I can no longer accept slow, colored, mushy, bandwidth limited, rolled-off extremes, excessively expensive SET amplifiers as nirvana. Indeed, those colorations and limitations are simply unacceptable if one is pursuing pure musical reality.
As an aside, Daniela Manger (and everyone at Metronome, too) not only designs state-of-the-art equipment that is superbly constructed with quality parts, but their honesty and business integrity is the tops. All of this is a most welcomed change.
Jim Ricketts/tmh audio |
I agree with Jim: I was going to review the Mangers for Ultra Audio, but they arrived damaged. Nonetheless, I set them up to see if they played. They were freaking DAZZLING....I could hear into the soundstage in a way that the Genesis 6.1s that I reviewed for Ultra Audio didn't even come close to, although the Genesis had deeper bass. My brother, who knows nothing about audiophiledom, said that this was the first speaker that sounded like there was actually a person playing music live.....and this was with a little Arcam A65+ integrated. I kid you not: it reminded me of when I was the Equipment Manger for Fi Magazine, and I went to Larry Kay's house and heard his Grand Slamms with a Rockport turntable and Jadis Electronics: you could actually "see" the instruments instead of looking at the "outlines" of the imaging. And I was only using a JVC XL Z-1010TN. I have lusted after a pair of them ever since I had to send them back.... |
I have heard all the Manger speakes made by the company. The best result comes out with powerful fast amps.I got a fantastic sound using 103s with Gamut electronics.Both these products have their detractors,but brought together under the right conditions,the combination can take on some the best.I suggest all Manger users to try using Gamut electronics with Mangers.When using Gamut,please use their own balanced interconnect cable only.
Sphere. |
D_edwards, Thanks for the info re: the amps - feel free to send to me jim@tmhaudio.comBut I must say our Metronome Class-A mono amps (AMT-70 and AMT-140) are fast, ultra-wide bandwidth, detailed and so clear & pure. Great power supply for explosive dynamics, too! More info at http://www.tmhaudio.com/Metronome.htmI've been a tube guy forever and using the Manger's with a quality solid state amplifier is nothing short of breathtaking. Jim Ricketts/tmh audio |
No problem Greg,
As for the dual VC Scanspeaks, never saw anything like them before or after, I bought 6 from Madisound, used 2 in a car stereo system and the 4 in the Manger system.
Must have been ordered by a manufacturer and it didn't work out etc.
BTW TMH,
Anytime you want the best amps for the Manger's, I can get them for you. Will absolutely blow your mind and the cost about <$4000 retail 3 channel and to be honest no money will get you much better. :) The designer will build them (OEM) in your name if you like. Just design the faceplate and poof TMH Audio amplifiers. |
Hey Guys, A bit of updated info re: the Manger driver. Daniela Manger has indeed further refined the driver which is now quite linear in response and impedance. Much easier to drive and achieve even more spectacular results. Now the caveat, since the driver is lightning fast, an amplifier that can keep up is optimal. However, superb results can be obtained with many amplifiers out there on the market. Contact us if you have questions about a specific model. I have always preferred what ESL, Ribbons, etc can do well and I find similar qualities in the Manger. And without the physical size and required room dimensions. Even the 2-way ZeroBox 109 (19" tall) with the 8" ScanSpeak carbon-bass driver that takes over at 140 hz is extraordinary. The 109 puts other much more expensive loudspeakers to shame in all the audiophile areas and yet sounds so naturally real & live. More info at http://www.tmhaudio.com/Manger.htmJim Ricketts/tmh audio |
My Manger project utilize 2 dual voice coil Scan speak 8" Kevlar (100watts per driver perside) and twin tower 2x15" JBL woofers (total of 4). Now that's what I'd call refreshingly serious stuff!! I assume the Scan was a 8546 - but w/ dual VC -- filling in midbass b/ween Manger & JBLs? Actually, a contemporary Manger I tried briefly has a smooth pattern in the mid/upper-region (s/thing bumpy ~7kHz, never figured out what it was). Thank you for the descrip. |
Hey Greg,
My Manger project utilize 2 dual voice coil Scan speak 8" Kevlar (100watts per driver perside) and twin tower 2x15" JBL woofers (total of 4).
Manger and paper allow for an easier passive crossover but the paper is a distortion liability in higher performance systems, and with Accuton and Seas using very rigid cones and better motors today, the speaker could be significantly better than what I built, waaaaaayyyy better.
That's not to dump on a Zerobox 109, 107, there are many speakers inferior to it, but in my opinion if you're not using advanced DSP methods, then you cannot get the best from the Manger driver.
The Manger driver today looks to perform about 70% better than the one I used, the DSP was used to control dispersion in the high frequencies and flatten the response to with +/- .5db throught the mids, with todays computing power the transparency of the DACs, the Manger can be realized to its fullest potential. I know why I stopped using the Mangers, but it appears those issues have been smoothed out and have become stabilized.
BTW, there's is nothing obvious about using the Manger, it was not like I bought the parts and the next day I had a speaker that was good and was on the U-1 level, more like 2-3 years later. You don't slip this driver in and suddenly you're a speaker design genius, infact its quite the opposite. All sorts of little nasty surprises that on other speakers could be ignored but are revealed by the superior performance of the Manger, simply cannot be overlooked. The Overkill guys would likely have even better stories and maybe some measurements. I have no records of my early projects and I can't even remember who I sold the system too. Some guy in Frederick Md.
BTW, you better have the "right" amplifiers, Nelson Pass does not make the "right" amplifiers for the Manger which is why he couldn't get it to fly. Manger is a tricky beasty that on paper looks like a plug and play miracle.
it is a trap. :) |
D_edwards, can you describe your Manger application -- the speaker part, the dsp part is obvious? BTW, that 10' paper scan is not a bad driver in & of itself.
What did you use?
Cheers |
Well EssentialAudio I have to ask based on this comment, cause I am assuming you actually know something technical about audio gear not just brand names.
"That is not to say the Manger drivers do not have their merits"
Like what? What are their "merits"? You should be able to rattle 5-6 things that make the Manger unique.
I cannot write an experience for you but no SoundLab is ever going to win an award for clarity, not with the reverb off the back wall (100% distortion), and when you can get 110db out of your speakers at 30hz call me, cause that is bass output performance commiserate with a $30,000 speaker system in my estimation. Just don't break anything trying, its not that important. :) |
D_edwards, I neither understand nor agree with your remark, "Imagine Sound Labs U-1's with clarity and bass...you get the idea." Have you ever heard Sound Lab Ultimate-1s? And if so, under what conditions and how long ago? I purchased U-1s several years ago, later to become a Sound Lab dealer, and I can assure you clarity and bass have never been lacking, in fact they are some of the strong points. I suggest anyone who has heard U-1s properly set up would say the same. That is not to say the Manger drivers do not have their merits, but your argument citing U-1s as an example doesn't hold water, in my estimation. |
7 years ago I built an active DSP based Manger system with a custom Scanspeak driver (not the paper one manger uses, yech). And it was righteous. Imagine Sound Labs U-1's with clarity and bass...you get the idea.
Manger driver is like a formula one racecar, the average guy can't drive it at all, a really good driver can keep it on the road and only the best can get the best from it.
Being speaker designer isn't enough to make a Manger speaker, and as Pass proved an o.d. on amp experience won't get you over the hump either
Gotta be able to do all three Speaker, Amp and DSP or you're not going to be good enough.
Kudos to Overkill for surpassing all the wannabee failures with the Manger. (70K? I'm still buying a Rocket Chassis 358 WOO late model for that money) Get much prettier girls from the same investment. :)
Manger with DSP is easily one of the ultimate home speakers, with Warner Imaging amplification on my original project and finding the right midbass driver can be brilliant. Sweet lightning.
Shame on me for never building another Manger Project...the allure of Diamond midranges from Accuton are very irresisteable and sucking up all my project money. |
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As the US distributor of Manger, some additional clarification re: the Manger driver, especially the range and crossover points... 1. The Manger driver actually has a bandwidth of ~ 85-35khz. 2. In the Swing model, the crossover to the Subsonic subwoofer is ~ 90hz. 3. In the 2-way Zerobox 109 stand mount using a custom Scan Speak 8", the crossover is at 140 hz. More info at http://www.tmhaudio.com/Manger.htmJim Ricketts/tmh audio |
Hi Everyone,
We have been working hard on our Overkill Audio loudspeakers and now are preparing to launch the Encore (not the prototype that was illegally sold by Joe Shanaphay or "bearman") which is the ultimate Manger equiped speaker.
Our new USA distributor will have his full reference system installed in March 2006 and then be able to demonstrate what can be done. Even if you are not currently in the market you will always be welcome to bring along your CD,s and have a coffee and enjoy the music!
All the best
Derek Wilson. |
Larryi the Mangers are 8" (they do look small). But yr comments still apply! |
I've heard them in two models of Overkill Audio speakers at CES and T.H.E. Show. Both implementations were quite expensive (One model is $70k, including digital crossover and amps). The Overkill speakers sounded incredibly fast, dynamic and exciting. They also sounded quite musical and not as hard and metallic as many other very fast and loud speakers can be. I really did not have a chance to audition it they way I would if I were considering a purchase.
The obvious downside of the Manger driver is a very limited dispersion of highs. Even moving one's head just a few inches makes a big difference. I suppose good dispersion of highs is asking too much considering that the Manger works down to an extremely low frequency and looks to be bigger than 6" in diameter. |
If he doesn't respond, you might contact member Plato, who had a speaker using this driver in his home a few years ago. |
Israel Blume of Coincident did a design with a Manger a few years ago. As I understand it, it never really made it past the experimental stage, with only a few examples produced. A friend of mine has one, and I've heard it a few times. It has a number of shortcomings that would make it unacceptable for me, though he loves it. To me it lacks immediacy and dynamics, though how much of this is due to the Manger and how much is the fault of the rest of the implementation (or even the fact that he doersn't play them loud enough) is impossible to say. |
It's a wide-range driver and, depending on the application, it can be used down to 300-200Hz. It has an unusual sound; in some respects it's reminiscent of a ribbon & in others of cones. DIspersion characteritics are also somewhat unusual compared to a conventional cone. People who have tried working with it (N Pass is one of these) have had difficulties in getting the speaker system dispersion pattern right (among other things). The side firing mangers seen in some systems are purportedly there to smooth response from ~2kHz downwards...
I forgot: it's also an expensive driver so, if you're thinking of a diy scheme, check out a discussion at diyaudio.com. E-speakers sells it in the US and has some specs at the site. |
"I have heard the Manger driver sounding GREAT depending upon how it is used within a particular speaker design."
YES!! I have also heard the Manger driver sounding mediocre depending upon how it is used within a particular speaker design.
Kal |
Hi Fatparrot,
I have heard the Manger driver sounding GREAT depending upon how it is used within a particular speaker design.
Best,
Barry Kohan |
