7 years ago I built an active DSP based Manger system with a custom Scanspeak driver (not the paper one manger uses, yech). And it was righteous. Imagine Sound Labs U-1's with clarity and bass...you get the idea.
Manger driver is like a formula one racecar, the average guy can't drive it at all, a really good driver can keep it on the road and only the best can get the best from it.
Being speaker designer isn't enough to make a Manger speaker, and as Pass proved an o.d. on amp experience won't get you over the hump either
Gotta be able to do all three Speaker, Amp and DSP or you're not going to be good enough.
Kudos to Overkill for surpassing all the wannabee failures with the Manger. (70K? I'm still buying a Rocket Chassis 358 WOO late model for that money) Get much prettier girls from the same investment. :)
Manger with DSP is easily one of the ultimate home speakers, with Warner Imaging amplification on my original project and finding the right midbass driver can be brilliant. Sweet lightning.
Shame on me for never building another Manger Project...the allure of Diamond midranges from Accuton are very irresisteable and sucking up all my project money. |
Well EssentialAudio I have to ask based on this comment, cause I am assuming you actually know something technical about audio gear not just brand names.
"That is not to say the Manger drivers do not have their merits"
Like what? What are their "merits"? You should be able to rattle 5-6 things that make the Manger unique.
I cannot write an experience for you but no SoundLab is ever going to win an award for clarity, not with the reverb off the back wall (100% distortion), and when you can get 110db out of your speakers at 30hz call me, cause that is bass output performance commiserate with a $30,000 speaker system in my estimation. Just don't break anything trying, its not that important. :) |
No problem Greg,
As for the dual VC Scanspeaks, never saw anything like them before or after, I bought 6 from Madisound, used 2 in a car stereo system and the 4 in the Manger system.
Must have been ordered by a manufacturer and it didn't work out etc.
BTW TMH,
Anytime you want the best amps for the Manger's, I can get them for you. Will absolutely blow your mind and the cost about <$4000 retail 3 channel and to be honest no money will get you much better. :) The designer will build them (OEM) in your name if you like. Just design the faceplate and poof TMH Audio amplifiers. |
Finally;
MartinsV;
Where do people like you hang out?! because it is refreshing to see such insight and understanding, that I must admit that I share, well actually harbor your thoughts.
Its always risky to be so certain, but for all the negativity it will bring you; I couldn't agree more with your comments. |
Duke;
I know how convenient it is to think I've never heard a Sound Lab M-1 or U-1 but you forget that these speakers are almost unchanged for 25 years or more, It hasn't been difficult to get to hear a Sound Lab when their have been dealers and clients near by.....try to find a manger dealer 10 years ago!
Like Essential Audio Duke, please share your Manger systems experience with us so maybe we can arrive at a mutual understanding of my Sound lab (or any dipole speaker) comments. Or maybe you simply find my comments unimaginable.
There is much better ways to getting a proper reverberent field than spilling a 100% out of phase fullrange signal into the room and bouncing it off "spectrally correct?" drywall... |
"Rather than my risking mis-interpreting your position, in the interest of continuing our discussion in a dedicated thread, would you clarify exactly what you see as detrimental about the backwave energy of the SoundLabs?"
Its the backwave energy of ANY fullrange dipole or bipole, its a delay channel. My Apogee's, magneplanars and Martin Logans all have the same issue, and as you indicate can be minimized to a degree but is that what I want? Some people do, but I'm way past that.
How can a speaker with a marginally controllable fullrange effects/reverb system win a clarity contest?
Psycho-acoustics? please, thats a pretty broad stoke.
Our disconnect is you cannot articulate any quality experiences with the Manger, then that is where our miscommunication is going to remain. One day when you hear the Manger....I recommend Overkill Audio product then you will have my perspective about clarity.
I don't want to talk negatively about Sound Labs and other Dipoles but they have issues which hurt them in areas like clarity, even though some fake clarity very well, its just that, a fake. You're a speaker expert I'm sure I don't have to explain how its done.
A multichannel surround system clearly will demonstrate that although pleasing this fixed dipole "reverb" clouds and homogenizes the image of a dipole speaker like the Sound Lab. You just want to overlook the detrimental aspects of slapping a fullrange signal off some drywall and assume psychoacoustic will explain this very un-ideal situation into a positive, I can't imagine anyone not thinking this is very very optimistic.
I think what you failed to take into consideration is these comments were in reference too the Manger driver, a vastly superior drive element to the technology used in the Sound Lab. And because it appears you have little or no idea what the Manger can do you take my comments as a big insult to the Sound Labs, well it wasn't, because the Sound Lab has to do very many things extremely well to simply lose out to the Manger on clarity.
So why should I debate someone who simply cannot put my comments into proper context?
The backwave lesson will cost you, you want academic information you gotta pay the academic fees.
----------I also invite you to let me know which of my statements you're characterizing as "marginally factual" and "misleading".----------------------------------------
"To the ear, the backwave of a dipole is not 100% distortion; rather, it is reverberant field energy. If reverberant field energy were undesirable, concert halls and recital halls would resemble anechoic chambers"
Complete false analogy and misunderstanding of how the backwave is working and the difference between reproducing sound through speakers and listening to live sound. You glorify two delay channels, why not get a surround system? Can you really be a two channel guy when you listen to 4 anyway? off the topic kinda but I'm curious.
"SoundLabs are exceptionally good at getting the reverberant field right, something that live voices and instruments routinely do but few loudspeakers emulate."
Can you answer how they get the reverberant field right, or is this just a quantification of your experience. How can something that makes everything sound 7 feet tall be getting the reverbent field right? Maybe you just like the extra reverb on your music....singing in the shower type thing?
"A spectrally correct reverberant field is conducive not only to natural timbre, but also long-term fatigue-free listening. I can explain why this is so if anyone is interested."
Correct timbres relating directly to the frequency response of your drywall....no need to explain. Theory is nice but reality is difficult and non-linear.
Note that a line source speaker like the SoundLabs generates a much higher ratio of direct to reflected sound energy at the listening position than does a typical direct-radiating point source speaker, even factoring in the backwave.
Over what listeing window or to be specific gate time? Over a very short window yes, but open the window wider and here comes the 2nd blip....what to do with all that maybe correlated maybe not correlated signal?
"D edwards arrived at his negative assessment by reasoning rather than by first-hand experience."
You're the one who never heard the Manger, you should be sorry for making a completely false statement to set the record straight about the Sound labs?
Isn't that ironic? LOL! |
Duke,
What exactly would be the benefit to me in explaining my research to you?
and thanks for the apology.
Too bad we never met, Warner imaging and ATC both almost flew me to see you so you would "get it", how's that for a 'round about, people willing to spend money for me to educate you :)
isn't that funny! |
For clarity sake I think its important to note that I don't disagree with what Duke is stating other than how he is applying these theories to the subject as all encompassing explanations which is the only area I disagree. The deviation from ideal is where my point is defined, In the vacuum of the theorethical conditions Duke is correct as we know psychacoustics today.
The comment about the scale of image for example, the comment about "not being setup right" means that no fullrange Dipole system I have ever heard has been setup correctly. Because A dipole's cancellation isolates the rear wave into a distinct channel and this channel is always going to behave ideally which Duke's argeument hinges on. And its affect although pleasing still represents signal distortion as do reflections from other areas as you will find in all speakers. The inherent decoding problem of only using two speakers is another factor in this discussion and it is too complex to explain in short points. I have no motivation to write the 5000 words minimum to explain my position, only to have it picked apart for the sake of saying one's opinion about the clarity of a speaker. |
Hey Greg,
My Manger project utilize 2 dual voice coil Scan speak 8" Kevlar (100watts per driver perside) and twin tower 2x15" JBL woofers (total of 4).
Manger and paper allow for an easier passive crossover but the paper is a distortion liability in higher performance systems, and with Accuton and Seas using very rigid cones and better motors today, the speaker could be significantly better than what I built, waaaaaayyyy better.
That's not to dump on a Zerobox 109, 107, there are many speakers inferior to it, but in my opinion if you're not using advanced DSP methods, then you cannot get the best from the Manger driver.
The Manger driver today looks to perform about 70% better than the one I used, the DSP was used to control dispersion in the high frequencies and flatten the response to with +/- .5db throught the mids, with todays computing power the transparency of the DACs, the Manger can be realized to its fullest potential. I know why I stopped using the Mangers, but it appears those issues have been smoothed out and have become stabilized.
BTW, there's is nothing obvious about using the Manger, it was not like I bought the parts and the next day I had a speaker that was good and was on the U-1 level, more like 2-3 years later. You don't slip this driver in and suddenly you're a speaker design genius, infact its quite the opposite. All sorts of little nasty surprises that on other speakers could be ignored but are revealed by the superior performance of the Manger, simply cannot be overlooked. The Overkill guys would likely have even better stories and maybe some measurements. I have no records of my early projects and I can't even remember who I sold the system too. Some guy in Frederick Md.
BTW, you better have the "right" amplifiers, Nelson Pass does not make the "right" amplifiers for the Manger which is why he couldn't get it to fly. Manger is a tricky beasty that on paper looks like a plug and play miracle.
it is a trap. :) |
Duke,
This thread is about the Manger driver and Manger speakers. Your marginally factual, misleading post and assumption about how I came to my opinion is poor form. Maybe you should ask me to clarify my position so you understand what I'm talking about.
Look I don't want to pick on the Sound Labs to address your assumptions and very creative interpretations. but let me suggest that you are behind the curve and the world is not "ideal" which you heavily count on to make your point.
Maybe you should measure your Sound Labs and see what they really do like I have, then maybe we can talk about it. As you took great pains to tell us about what we hear and what we measure maybe you'll find that what you think you hear and what your really hearing is just as incongruent. |
