Tomer,
I just exchanged e-mails with JD today. It sounds like he's taking a break for the holiday season. He's a bit worn out from some new found business hassles, and decided to take a short break. He says he plans to be back to work early next year.
BTW, that phone number is his home number. He works out of his home, lower overhead. Try calling him again, he is a wealth of knowledge and a very pleasant fellow.
Cheers,
John |
Hey John,
Thanks for the info! I'll give him a call once the holiday season is over. Now if I could only save up some $$$ to upgrade to the Hybrids... :-)
Tomer |
Tomer, I have had all three of JD's cables, the Solid Gold, Vermeil Gold, and Hybrid. They are much like JD descibed them in his ads, with the original Solid Gold being the sweetest, sounding like a SET amp, the Vermeil like a very good SS amp, and the Hybrid like, well like a Hybrid amp. Which you would prefer is up to your system and musical tastes. I know several who prefer the Vermeil's speed and transparency over the added rich harmonics that the Hybrid or Solid Gold bring to the table.
It's all about balance and what you need, if your system happens to sound best with the less expensive Vermeil, which is entirely possible, just relax and enjoy it. The Vermeil is one of the best bargains in cables that I am aware of today.
Cheers,
John |
Hey John,
I've got the Vermeil with Eichmann Copper Bullets and Bybee filters, and they simply sound incredible in my system... I don't have too much experience with high end interconnects, though I did pick up a pair of Gabriel Gold Revelations and the Vermeils blew them away (in my system, with my ears, and my music of course!) I am running an all digital system, so the added richness of the Hybrid sounds appealing, but since I also eventually need to get a matching one for a center channel, going that route is likely too expensive for me. I guess I'd also like to try a pair of Synergistic Tesla Accelerators, but again, anything beyond that is also getting a bit out of my price range. I do think that JD mentioned that the Vermeils can be made to sound a little richer with the Furutech gold plugs, which is why I was considering sending them back for an upgrade!
Tomer |
I just sent JD an email to order his Vermeil Digital. Will keep this forum informed. |
tomer just wondered if you let the Gabriel Golds break-in before your assestment?They do take a while to do so |
Tomer - Your experience with the GGs vs. Jade cables mirror the cable shootout that I did last year. Even after 150+ hours on the GG Revs, it was as flat and lifeless compared to the Jade as it was with zero hours. |
Unfortunately the GG's take 300-400 hours to break-in as do the Nordost Valhalla.You may have been just a little to quick to judge or the cable may just have not mated in your system.Bottom line we like what we like. |
Thanks Darealjaydee ... We all like what we like. But we also quickly learn how something we liked so much before can be seriously displaced by something else. If someone has the GG Rev cables and they work for them, that is fine. I used to feel the same way about NBS Statement cables used throughout my system until I heard Purist Dominus and Kubala-Sosna Emotion. Both of those cables were a wake-up call for me to realize no matter how much I liked the sound of my system with the NBS, these other cables brought on a significant increase in system refinement. Going back to the NBS became impossible.
Until we experience such a comparative evaluation, we have no relative value on what we are currently using. And even then, if the user claims how much smoother or extended the tonality has become, that I have no argument with. But that was not where the GG vs. Jade differences existed.
As for what I listen for with a cable, it's all about the portrayal of space, retainment of harmonic structures and decays. Nearly all "high-end" systems I have heard that claim to have these qualities have failed miserably. But for a system where this is a strength, the Jade Hybrid outperforms this GG by quite a stretch. It was the case in my system and that of another where the GG Rev and Jade Hybrid were put through a direct shootout.
I was told by the GG manufacturer that 150 hours would show a significant change....and it did not....at least not in what I was listening for. And I reported my findings to the manufacturer at 0, 75 and 150 hours vs. the Jade Hybrid. He was surprised as was I after all the praise I had read about these cables. I have reported elsewhere on A'gon that the Revs worked mighty fine in terms tonal coherency, clarity and dynamics....but that wasn't good enough. Ultimately, I returned the Revs.
Only later was it reported that the Rev's needed 300 hours surface. But again, none the claims of magic at 150 hours ever came through for me. Maybe they did improve, but relative to the Jade Hybrid, it was a moot issue.
As for the many hours needed, this can only be verified through a logical process. Someone would need to buy two pairs, compare them both at zero hours to confirm no sonic differences. One pair would be burned in for 300 hours and the comparison would be done again between the two. If the burned in cable at 300 hours significantly outperformed the unused cable, then I might believe such a claim. But I doubt anybody has gone through this process. And if not, the claimed changes with the cable's burn-in time are most likely more to do with the user being acclimated to the sonic signature of the cable.
And unless someone puts forth the effort to directly compare the GG cables to others such as the Jade, Stealth, and Purist, in the same system, where 3D portrayal is a strength, rather than claim how phenomenal the GG cables are over eveything else, then that user has no idea what they are missing. |
Good points.
I believe there are direct comparisons in this thread with GG's against Stealth Indras,Jade and others in this thread.It's so long it will take some raeding to dig out.
Did you ever contact the manufacturer regarding re-auditioning a broken-in pair or a pair of Revs or the Rapture which compare pricewise almost exactly as the Jade Hydrids |
Just did a little digging thru the long GG post and there are definately quite a few direct shootouts in there where members seem to prefer the GG's over the likes of Stealth Indra and Metacarbon,VD Revelations and Master,Jade Vemeil,Kondo KSL,Analysis Golden Oval,AZ Silver Reference,Siltech G4,Audio Magic Sorcerer,Cardas Golden Ref and Neutral Ref to name some
There are also a few members who do prefer the JADE over the GG's.That the beauty of choice so eloquently put by JD of Jade audio in the GG thread.
"Finally, I heard the GG Rev. on my system and was very impressed. These are great cables, I was not surprised with the tonality, in that this is proving to be a common denominator with gold wire. I was most excited to find that we both make very good cables that I feel have raised the bar for interconnects. I think it is important that the early gold cable manufacturers are beyond peoples expectation if the industry is going to join the few pioneers who are trying gold. If we succeed, then the entire industry succeeds because others with much larger R&D budgets can expand on what we are learning.
For me this is not a competition, it is a hobby that many of us are very passionate about. If GG can raise the level of performance, and if I can follow with another excellent product, then I see us all winning. Two great cables are being made for a fraction of the cost that we will see once the big boys jump in. It will be then that this is less about sharing our passions for music and more about winning."
you got to love choice and my other vote is for Hilary. |
I agree with pretty much everything John (Jafox) has said. I also prefer the Jade cables. However, it is true that I have found gold cables in general to have a strong sense of harmonic textures that I enjoy. I've also heard gold cables from Gabriel Gold and Awesound. IMHO they all have a similar harmonic 'rightness' to the notes that makes gold so addictive. I prefer the way the Jade soundstages though, and the notes decay into a black space. It sounds more natural to me.
The one problem I have with cable manufacturers in general is that many tend to keep increasing the 'break-in' period, but they don't seem to be increasing the money back guarantee trial period. I've had other manufacturers besides GG originally tell me that 100-150 hours would be sufficient. When I hit that mark, if I'm not impressed, the number increases to 300-400. Virtual Dynamics did this to me as well. When I explain that that many hours would put me past the return window, I then realized that is probably the intention of it.
From my cable burn in experiences, I believe a cable may keep developing for 100-1000 hours, but I would say that 90% of the burn in occurs in the first 100 hours. FWIW, I felt Jade Vermeil cables changed more in the first 100 hours of any cable I've ever heard, that includes the Jade Hybrid and Gold. I can't explain why though.
After 100 hours with a cable, if I haven't heard improvement, or it's not in the ballpark, I tend to move on. I find it difficult to believe that a cable I've listened to for 100 hours and have mixed feelings about will all of a sudden just bloom into wonder cable after 300-400 hours. If this possibility does exist, cable manufacturers will need to extend their money back guarantee period to 90 days or longer. Otherwise I'm tempted to believe that this number is just extended to take you past the return date trying to burn the cable in. Call me cynical if you must, but that's my $0.02.
Cheers,
John |
cynical?I don't know?but in the case of Gabriel Gold I think you may want to check out his feedback and reputation.I'm pretty certain he's not intentially expanding break-in time to keep your money.My gut feeling is he doesn't do this for the money.
Don't know about VD?Did you ever ask Steve for a refund?
My guess is he would have accommodated you.just my 2 cents. |
I have not thought of it like Jmcgrogran2. I simply find it hard to believe that cable differences can be quantified between zero hours and X hours.
In the case of listening to a cold tube component and then playing that same recording 30-60 minutes later, it is very clear how some of the edge is smoothed over as the tubes and other parts have stabilized. Is this the kind of change people talk about when they say cables need burn in? But even cold, it is clear as to the overall sonic signature of tube electronics component. Are people claiming this is not the case with cables? .... you can not judge them at all until a minimum number of hours? It all sounds kinda silly to me. Now matter how long you rub a copper penny, it does not suddenly become a gold nugget. |
I do believe in burn in John, as I have heard it. I think it has more to do with the dielectric breaking in.
I don't believe in it to the extent that some do, recommending at least 300, 400, even 500 hours or more until a cable starts to work it's magic. I haven't heard this happen in my 30 years of listening. I guess anything is possible, but I still believe that a cable's sonic signature is pretty much established by 100 hours. Certainly enough time to decide if a cable has serious potential or not. As I stated earlier, I've found 90% of the burn in happens in the first 100 hours. You may get some slight change after that, but it won't be much, IMHO.
Darealjaydee, you seem to take any GG comment a bit too seriously, as if it were a personal attack on you. Maybe you should stick to the GG threads, there are a few of them out there. I tend to leave those GG enthusiasts to enjoy their euphoria on their threads now. I made a few comments on there when I was trying them. Obviously I was not well received there because my comments were not totally ga-ga. I do not mean to demean the GG cables or Steve, they are good cables (they do have gold in them), and Steve is a good guy, they're just not the best that I've heard. Obviously personal tastes and system synergy have a lot to do with this.
I found it less confrontational to just leave the GG thread. I've found the same with the VD threads. If my comment on their cables is not 100% roses, I am booed and jeered. Some cables elicit more passion, like the GG and VD. You don't find that kind of passion on other cable companies threads. Passion can be a good thing though, so don't take this as another assault.
If this thread bothers you, maybe you will find more peace by ignoring it. Just a thought.
Cheers,
John
BTW, I did make the same comment to Rick Schultz of VD when auditioning a pair of his Revelation speaker cables. They were used cables, but he offered me a 30 day money back guarantee. As the 30 day deadline approached, I was at about 125 hours, and though I did like some of their traits, I decided that overall, I had heard better, and wanted to return them. Rick told me that they may require more burn in, maybe 250-350 hours. I asked him if he would extend the trial period, but he would not. He said he normally doesn't offer trial periods with used cables. So I thanked him for the opportunity to listen, and shipped the cables back. Maybe that has something to do with my jaded (sic) behaviour towards exorbitant burn in times. Well that and the fact that the cables I do decide to keep do not change much after the first 100 hours. |
JD answered my mail concerning the Vermeil Digital. So the man is still alive and kicking ! ;-)
BTW. I have VD Masters on trial and they advised 400-800 hours of burning in. Ofcourse this isn't possible within the 45 days trial. But I hope they will be flexible... |
Wow... I left this thread for dead, only to come back a few weeks later and find it alive and kicking!
To answer Bobf's question the GG Revelations I tried ended up with about 200 hours on them. Apparently that isn't enough time, because according to Steve Brunelle they need 300 hours to completely settle. While that may be true, I have a hard time believing that cables can undergo wholesale changes in character between 200 and 300 hours! In my (perhaps limited) experience, I've had pretty good idea what a cable is gonna sound like after a few days... After that, the rest of the break in tends to manifest as refinement in sound, like a smoothing out of the midrange or a sweetening of the treble.
My experience with GG Revelations was that they sounded very "dense", compared to the Jade Vermeils, both in terms of the soundstage as well as temporally. I felt like sounds that were previously spread out nicely between the speakers all fell towards the center of the soundstage. I particularly noticed this with the bass. Also, like Jafox has described, I lost a certain amount of shimmer and the sense that sounds decay into a black background. But main reason I removed the Revelations before 300 hours was that for some reason they accentuated some treble hash that I had never experienced before in my system. Now that may have gone away with more break in time, but I couldn't stand the thought of having to listen to my system like that for another week! So I put the Vermeils back in for some respite, and I never felt like giving the Revelations another try. Perhaps I like the treble through my Vermeils more because they have Bybee filters in them?
That being said, just because the Revelations didn't work out for me, they have so much positive feedback and Steve Brunelle is such a great guy to do business with, I have no reservations in recommending that people give the Gabriel Golds a shot in their systems. I would just keep an open mind and try other interconnects as well!
As an aside, I don't understand why all these manufacturers who claim these exceedingly long break in requirements don't break in the cables themselves with a cable cooker before shipping! I know that the dielectric still needs to settle after the cables are moved around, but requiring a customer to put 2 straight weeks on a cable before listening critically is a bit much.
On a separate note: Mattheus, I have the Vermeil Digital cable with Furutech Rhodium plugs, and I'm very pleased with it! It replaced a Stereovox XV2, and I had no qualms selling the XV2 as soon as I placed the Vermeil Digital in my system. The Vermeil retained all the detail of the XV2, but the treble was smoothed out considerably. I didn't really do an A/B test between them because I just preferred the Vermeil! If you end up getting one, I'd be interested to hear what you think about it.
And another note: A fellow Audiogoner graciously let me borrow a pair of Jade Audio Pure Gold interconnects for comparison with my Vermeil + Bybees. And I just won an auction for a pair of KCI Silkworms... Once the Silkworms arrive, I'll post a comparison between these three interconnects!
Tomer |
In my experience I've never heard any Gold cable sound harsh including the GG's,Stealth PGS and Siltech.
Maybe something else is going on?Bright room/equipment?just a thought I'll stay out of this thread in the future as there is certainly some disdain here for some reason |
No disdain at all coming from me! :-) Honestly, I don't understand why people get so worked up over whether everyone else likes the same interconnects as they do. This is supposed to be fun, guys! I've learned a lot about this hobby and discovered some cool cables/gear through reading these forums. Everyone has differences in tastes and experiences, and we all gain by sharing these with each other. (I feel like a preschool teacher right now! lol)
As for the treble hash I was hearing, I know that wasn't caused by the GG Revelations. My system is far from perfect at the moment, and getting it there feels like a never ending process! I have been trying to build an all digital system, but recently, I've felt like I've been gaining resolution at the expense of musicality. That's why I've been looking at gold interconnects. For some reason the Revelations simply made a bad system attribute more clear than I was hearing before. Actually, I've been thinking of adding some tubes to the mix, but that's probably fodder for another thread!
Tomer |
I'll stay out of this thread in the future as there is certainly some disdain here for some reason
Bobf Now you know why I no longer visit the GG threads Bob.... No disdain as long as you can play nice. I think the main thing is that folks understand that system synergy and tastes are different. No problem at all if you like GG cables, but after so many told me that GG cables need more burn in on the GG thread, we don't really need to hear it all again here on a Jade thread. If I feel like being told how wrong I was for not liking GG cables, I'd just go back to the GG threads. :) I mean really....that "you need to let them burn in another 300 hours" excuse is really old. I understand that Jade cables are not for everyone, why don't others seem to understand this? If you don't like Jade, fine, I don't care. I won't tell you that you need to listen to them for another month to "get them". From my experiences GG and VD fans are the most fanatical cable fans out there. Passion can be a good thing, but c'mon, let's not become stalkers, lurking in any thread that might say something not glowing about our favorite cable. Sheesh.... Cheers, John |
I have had both the Jade and GG cables. Both are excellent. I was not able to do a head to head comparison of the two so I can't really say or want to get into a this cable is better than that discussion of the two brands. Suffice it to say I own neither now. I went with Mosaic Chimera cables from Intuitive Audio Design. Know what? I don't even look at cable ads anymore or think of upgrading. It's a great feeling too. Seems like a couple other people on this thread have achieved audio nirvana with their cable preferences too, and isn't that what it's all about. |
I think this response from a member on another thread fits well here.
Basic Hyberphysics 101
Posted by Aball
"As far as I can tell, the break in effect is not due to the conductor or the dielectric, but rather the INTERFACE between the two. This interface, where conductor meets dielectric, has charge there due to dissimilar materials. It is basically static charge like you get when you rub your feet on carpet. It is the friction that produces the charge.
When you move cables around and bend them to get them connected to your gear, you are moving the dielectric relative to the conductor since in a curve, the outer side moves more than the inner side. This differential speed causes a charge build up on the surface of the conductor that remains there since the dielectric is not electrically conductive.
But when an electrical signal (e.g., music) goes through the cable, a magnetic field is generated around the conductor (called Ampere's Law). This field interacts with the electrostatic charge present at the outer surface. As with anything in nature, an equilibrium of the charges has to occur since energy is being pumped through. The time it takes for these charges to stabilize (or get eliminated?) is what would be the "break in" time. Cardas on his website has a blurb about this. I think it is called "triboelectric charge" in technical terms.
I think some cable makers try to get around this problem by leaving an air gap between the conductor and insulator. Tara Labs does this in their high-end models and a couple others do too I believe. It is a clever idea but hard to make in practice.
I am a believer in cable break in ever since I conducted an experiment. I had two identical MIT T2 cables. One was new and the other was used heavily and still in the system. I took the new ones and twisted them in all directions to increase the potential effect. Then I carefully removed the installed pair and put in the tortured new pair. The difference was totally obvious - particularly in the high frequencies. The used pair was distinctly smoother than the brash-sounding new pair. I was then going to twist up the old pair and retry but never did.
But I also think our brains change too. We spend every moment of our life getting used to things and we all know that if you are cooking in the kitchen, you can't smell the food - but that doesn't mean the food isn't there. |
Well, as my lawyer tells me, it seems as if I need to make a point of clarification. It seems that a GG disciple misconstrued one of my earlier posts and went whining to Steve at GG. Steve sent me a PM and we had a chat. It seems, I can't really say how, but the claim is when taken out of context, some may have intepreted that I claimed that Steve would not offer me a refund after 30 days.
First of all, I never said, nor did I mean to imply this. As Steve said in his e-mail to me, he has no formal 30 day trial period. I ordered a custom pair of GG Revelations speaker cables with full knowledge that there would be no trial period. I tried them for a month or so and decided, for sonic reasons, to go back to my PAD Dominus cables for reasons that my lawyer advises me not to speak of.
I never asked Steve for a refund because he made it clear up front that there would be no trial period on a custom made pair of cables. I have since sold the GG Revelation speaker cables in question to a gent in Venezuela. I have also moved on from the PAD Dominus speaker cables. Steve did recommend 100-150 hours of break in when I bought the cables, which they received. Steve never recommended the 300+ extended hour audition, that number came from the GG fanatics.
I did not point out GG as an example, my comment was:
"The one problem I have with cable manufacturers in general is that many tend to keep increasing the 'break-in' period, but they don't seem to be increasing the money back guarantee trial period."
My lawyer has advised me to point out in this statement the 'cable manufacturers in general' phrase for those that have trouble understanding English 101. The GG disciples would have you believe that GG is one of the companies that recommends a longer break in period. Steve would only say that some have found this to be so. It's not a formal reco from GG.
So I was wrong about GG, they are not one of the manufacturers who are extending recommended break in time. The 300-400 hour number seems to have just been made up on these boards from GG owners, not from the manufacturer.
Hopefully this fully satisfies all GG owners, who can now head back to their GG threads and dance happily ever after.
NEXT QUESTION. |
I have in my system both the Jade Hybrid ( thanks jmcgrogan2 ) and the GG Rapture ( I own ) for A/B testing.
I have had the GG Rev. and have sold them. The Rev. is not in the same league as the Jade H. End of story! 100/1000 hrs. will never put the Rev. in a winning way against the Jade H.
I will have a Rev. MK2 shortly for a A/B/C shootout.
I am a fan of GG cables but also a realist.
The GG/R is a different story and is a fair comparison with the J/H.
I can say that both are a must hear and will not disappoint. |
