Loftarasa: I agree with everything you've stated :)
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@Audiofun: by magnetic cables I mean those that I have in my main system: High Fidelity Cables. @Loftarasa: it makes a difference if you swap the hot and the neutral when you turn the walwart. Even fuses have a direction! Read about the after market fuses on this and other forums. As I mentioned many times, upgrading stock fuses yield, after dedicated lines and audiophile wall sockets, the highest return. Back to the topic: anyone have the SE upgrade installed? |
The polarity issue would take way more time to get into and explain than I have :) Let your ears be the judge, try it oriented in both positions and ponder what you hear :) Just so you know I am not one of those people as it relates to high end who believes everything can be explained. FYI, I have no idea why some power cords sound better into my SP10MK3's power supply than others ??? well, ok.., I have some ideas ... |
Hi Audiofun, I played around it with again last night. I agree with you; in Preamp mode (both 0 or 6db gain), it's deleterious. The loss is much less detectable when in buffer mode, but here I preferred 0db to 6db. I also agree the Digital Antidote feature is not really my cup of tea and that the 3D feature is pretty neat. So I think we're on the same page, except for me, going from balanced to single-ended is too much of a net loss. I may wait for the iTube mini. I'm no E.E. but I still don't quite get why switching the orientation of the wallwart will make any difference -- I mean, it's converting AC so electrically, how can it matter? |
Loftarasa; I totally understand that all things don't work in all systems and you are correct, the iTube Mini is on the way and as I understand it, that you unit will sport S.E. and TRUE Balanced inputs and outputs along with multiple inputs. The Mini will also sport a better analog volume control and a better power supply, although the P.S. included with the current iTube is already quieter than a battery supply. I have always contended that the iTube used with its own volume control and/or in +6dB gain is absolutely NOT transparent :) Question for you... If you went to "fixed" S.E. were you using the iTube as a preamplifier? If you were (using the iTube as a volume control) then I TOTALLY understand your comments/findings and agree with them. That is a great feature to have in a lower end system (not being a snob) or as a backup in the case that your preamp is in the shop for repairs or the such. Back to the music., listening to Reference Recordings Rachmaninoff on 200gram vinyl as I type this :) |
@audiofun, your gear is higher-end than mine and I don't doubt your claims about the iTube's performance in your system. But I'm sending my iTube back as it's not adding enough value for me. Having to go from variable balanced to fixed output single-ended may be a factor in my evaluation (different output stages, different cabling, voltage levels, SNR, CMMR things), though. Fiddling with the wallwart connector thing sounds bizarre; not quite what you're onto there. My last comment is I know iFi are coming out with the iTube mini, where we should expect higher performance (for higher outlay). That in itself may also suggest the iTube's most obvious use-case is computer/desktop/second-systems. I'd be interested in that if it supports balanced inputs/outputs and/or I switched to a fixed output DAC. Cheers. |
Hi JazzOnTheHudson, some comparisons have been to Murray James, FIM Gold, Argento (CRAZY EXPESNIVE!!!!) and I always go back to my design. Not sure exactly what you are referring to by "Magnetic Cables". DIY cables can be as good and better than aftermarket if you know what you are doing and start out with superior materials. Do not fall for the Continuous Cast marketing non-sense. I am not going to get into that except to say do some googling and find out what and why that inferior form or wire manufacturing was created. Leave it to the cabling liars (oops sorry marketers) to completely obfuscate the truth. Loftarasa; I will state that my experience with the iTube is completely to opposite of yours. I find the 3D Holograhic indispensable and absolutley transpatent in zero gain mode. Again, it bettered both my MFA Reference and Baby Reference and Equaled "No Preamp" (i.e. using PureMusics 64 bit volume control in conjunction with a wide dynamix range 24/176.4khz recording and -6dB on PM) as far as transparency. I can't speak for your system but the iTube is ABSOLUTELY transparent over here. Listening to Enya via my SP10-MK3/AMR PH77/AMR dP777 and iTube and i defy anyone to hear a loss of detail when the iTube is installed (if it were out of my system which it never is :). I have never needed to use the digital antidote with the AMR. One thing to note, the wall wart IS orientation sensitve, the cord leading from the wall wart should be aligned with the ground plug receptacle on your wall socket. This is easily heard if it is in the wrong configuration. I have found this to be the case with all of my amplifiers Reimyo PAT777, Graaf Modena, both Graaf GM 200's, Acoustic Reality Thaumaturges and the EAR 1001 REFS and my own 230 watt monos. The MFA Reference units are some of the finest volume attenuators out there, the Concert Fidelity Pre is world class and I still went with the iTube. I know nothing of NADs gear having never purchased it, perhaps it is simply not sympatico. YMMV |
On audiofun's endorsements, I ordered the iTube, got it today and will evaluate it more for a couple of weeks. Between my NAD M51 and ATC P1 power amp, these are my initial findings: after level-matching from going balanced to single-ended, I do feel some transparency is lost with the iTube as a straight buffer with no gain (so am glad to confirm the M51 preamp is doing a good job). This is also the case/worse when using it as a preamp with gain. The "digital antidote" feature is subtle. It mildly softens/rubs out the sharpest leading edges of treble notes, like layering in a low-powered unsharp-mask filter in Photoshop. Tried this on some songs that have clear peaks but the M51 doesn't need this affect as it's not screechy-sounding in the first place, and honestly, where sections of music do have piercing notes, they should be reflected accordingly! If your gear is sounding annoyingly peaky all the time, then maybe something else needs fixing rather than attenuating transients. The last feature - the 3D HolographicSound - works as described and is novel/fun to play around with, in both "normal" and "desktop" mode. I need to listen to less electronic music to get a full take on it. Don't get me wrong, I am NOT an accuracy above musicality freak at all. I do favor naturalness and fidelity. Guess I'd put it like this, when we're all following the same JRiver setup guides, turning off all DSP and playback options, and eschewing treble or bass controls in our pre-amps...but ignoring say room acoustic treatments which are much more dramatic, what are we doing?! My summary of the iTube is that it's really only suited for single-ended DACs with pre-amp sections that are bad in all the areas it addresses! |
I promise you wont lose anything and I also hold that simpler is NOT always better :) I make my own highly sheilded high band-width interconnect and digital cables. FYI, the iTube is LIGHT YEARS ahead of former buffers I have tried in the past such as the Musical Fidelity to the point they should not be compared (IMHO). |
Audiofun, thanks for the tip on iFi iTube, I am very tempted to try it and am trying to overcome my reservation of adding a zero gain device to enhance the sound as I had tube buffers before. This implies an additional set of expensive interconnects and the reservation that something gets "lost during the translation". Which ICs do you use between transport and DAC, DAC to iTube and iTube to amp(s)? I am using NordOst Valhalla as PC and hope to add more body with a HiDiamond P4 shortly, loosing some speed and maybe resolution in the process. |
Hi I don't think the SE upgrade is officially available as yet at least not in the states. If I remember correctly the tube becomes specially selected NOS 5670's utilizing special sockets with compatibility circuits in-built as well as noise filtering in-built. The volume control in the DP777 is one of the best kept secrets out there period. I sold both my MFA Reference Pre's (the Reference and the Baby Reference) which I owned simultaneously once the iTube came along.., I will explain. The MFA Ref TVC's were flat out the finest volume control units I had heard and that includes the ARC 40th Anniversary 2 Chassis Pre, Concert Fidelity (USD $24K), and they (MFA units) flat smoked the Allnic L/H 3000 (the one with the bigger mk2 transformers), made the allnic literally sound flat out wrong/ just wrong is all I can say. Having said all that I disagreed with the Stereophile review of the Baby Ref in one point and one point only; both the ref and the baby ref have a signature (in contrast to the reviewers stance) and as someone who owned them both I knew it well. It was a beautiful fullness which was delivered to the sound, not a coloration but literally a corporeal body to go along with the musical event. That is why I bought the baby ref (for the second system). Unlike the reviewer in Stereophile, I do NOT agree that they are perfectly transparent (not sure those were his exact words) and the DP777 as well as Pure Musics 64 bit volume control illustrated that quite easily to my ears. There is a very slight micro shading of low level detail/information with the TVC's that the AMR laid bare. Specifically things like a singers breath and or inflection when singing. The trade-off was the body :) So, the delimma, detail or body? I chose body hence the 2 MFA units. Then came along the iFi iTube and it did EVERYTHING the MFA units did PLUS it was as transparent with the AMR as the AMR alone. So I sold both MFA units and now I use the DP777 volume control into the iTube set at 0dB gain and in buffer mode with 3D on and it is phenomenal. In case you didn't know.., the guy (Thorsten Loesche) who deigned the Reference transformers for MFA is also the man behind AMR/iFi :) So he was able to electronically bring the benefits of the transformers with complete transparency to the iFi line. Caveat.., the iFi is NOT transparent if you engage the 6dB mode. If your' system is lean or sterile, the +6dB may work for you. All that to say that if you add the iTube to the AMR you may find that is all you will ever need. I have not looked for a pre since as I have heard NONE that can beat that combination and I have listened to a great many very very expensive preamps. Hope my 2 cents worth can be of some help :) |
Hi Coxhaus, I do have the copper VSF Black caps. I will be getting the SE modification and I am excited as well. I don't have it as yet, because it is not available yet.., shipping last day of March... Upgraded digital engine with Quad Core engine, in-house designed upgraded coupling cap and the NOS 5670 tube with built in noise filters in the tube socket. Good times indeed!!!! |
Gopher: I know you query was forever ago :) but I just saw your query and since this thread is still going... The AMR is beyond the Octave in its presentation of continuity. Much like a great analog rig can outshine a dac concerning continuousness of musical flow.., the AMR juxtaposed to the Octave elicits the same effect. I had both units in my rig side by side and could compare the Octave/Diverter HR directly to the AMR and that comparison ALWAYS made the Octave sound mechanical. I know that sounds harsh, but it was obvious and inescapable.., the Octave simply sounded.., well mechanical and harder almost like you could visualize the numbers being crunched to make the music. I still hold that it is a great dac and if you listen to it without having the AMR nearby it is very enjoyable. These days, my AMR has the Duelend VSF Black caps, I use an iPurifier and iUSB and (2) ifi Gemini cables along with the iTube. As you can tell.., I like the AMR/iFi line of gear :) Due to the iTube I actually sold both of my MFA Reference TVC's (Ref and Baby Ref) as I felt it brought the magic and fullness that the MFA's presented. That is not as surprising as it may seem when you find out that the man who actually designed the transformers in the MFA Ref is Thorsten Loesche, who happens to be one of the principals behind AMR/iFi. |
Did anyone see this. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1205899113 Shootout: AMR CD-77 vs. AR CD7 vs. Wadia 581se |
I have a Lampizator level 4 gen 4. It is supremely musical with better bass than the AMR and a nice rich analog sound. But Yington is right. Nothing is the best and it all depends on your priority. The AMR has better front to back layering and delicacy. Maybe something else too but the music just flows from the Lamp... Different flavors. I demoed a Luxman integrated amp that had a warm and round sound, not overly detailed. With that amp, I was wishing I had the AMR again. |
Jriggy, I am not running cables in series anymore. No need for this since I bought the Raidhos and switched over to David Elrod cables. But my front end is still in series -- isolation transformer > power conditioner > power regenerator. I sold my AMR DP-777 for a NAD M51 which will eventually be replaced by an Audio Horizons 3.1. |
Yingtonggao, You stated "But the AMR's naturalness and delicacy in midrange is really something special." This is exactly what I found with the NAD M51. I would classify it as very musical -- more musical that the AMR in my system. And the NAD M51 has no design issues. Regarding musicality, much is system dependent, IMO. |
Karmakuma, I will personally choose AMR DP777 over NAD M51. To me the NAD makes more Hi-Fi sense, the AMR makes more musical sense. More specifically, if you love big bass the NAD will do better. But the AMR's naturalness and delicacy in midrange is really something special. Any saying like "sleeper", "world beater", "everything" is just misleading. Nothing is the best and it all depends on your priority. It's easy to buy HiFi-ish DAC for around $1~2K, but very hard to buy musically involving DAC even if you spend $10~20K. The AMR is not a perfect DAC, but at least in a few aspects it enters the cost-no-object category. |
I have tried a bunch of separate USB/SPDIF converters before the AMR DP-777, including really expensive ones from Off-ramp with all possible options and modifications. Each sounds different but none presented a significant upgrade to running USB directly into AMR. That holds true until one day I inserted the Z-system RDP-1 before my USB/SPDIF dongle and AMR, it has brought the performance up to a new level, I would say night and day. Now I can never go back to the USB port running direct. Too bad I have to turn one four boxes (MacBookPro, USB/SPDIF dongle, Z-system RDP1, and AMR DP-777) before the AMR locks onto any signal, but it's worth it. To all AMR DP-777 owners: If you don't have something like Z-system RDP-1 before your DAC, you don't know how your AMR is all about. It doesn't matter whether you are using PC, Mac, or CEC belt-driven transport. It doesn't matter whether you are using AQ Diamond or WW Platinum Starlight USB cable, they make 5-10% difference, but if you have the money, buy a good re-clocking device like the RDP-1 and sit in amazement! It's like transforming your $5K DAC to $10K, or from DP777 to CD77. |
Sabai, I am considering one of these two DACs - NAD M51 or AMR DP-777. What do you think does the NAD better than the AMR? And vice versa? Both seem to be highly praised. But their prices are so far off each other that I have a hard time believing the NAD being same or even better than the AMR... Thanks, Karmakuma |
My DAC has been running for 4 weeks and it now getting very good. Both DAC chips have broken in so please disregard the above post as it has no meaning. This is a great DAC now that it has lots of hours on it. I have sold the Berkeley Alpha USB converter running into the AMR 777. The AMR 777 has a better USB input than the Berkeley running through the BNC connector. When running the Berkeley into the AMR777s BNC connector the sound loses punch which is not a problem using the internal USB connector. So I am quite happy with the AMR777 DAC now. I am using an Audioquest Diamond USB cable. What USB cables are you guys using with the AMR777 DAC? |
I have my AMR 777 in house and I am breaking it in. I only have a little over 50 hours now but it is running around the clock. I have come across an issue and maybe someone can help. The first day the DAC ran with my Berkeley Alpha USB connected using BNC with a Purist Dominus Digital cable. The HD DAC chip running organic mode sounds nice and organic. The Philips DAC chip sounds kind of closed in with a small sound stage. If I switch to USB straight into the AMR 777 the Philips chip sounds better to me with a larger sound stage. With direct USB the HD organic chip mode sounds a little to clean to me. My problem is I want Redbook to be directly connected to USB but I want HD to run through the BNC connector. I cannot have both as the Berkeley computer drivers and the AMR drivers cannot be installed at the same time and trying to switch is not practical. Why would the BNC input be different for the 2 DACs? Can anybody confirm what I am hearing? What are you guys doing? Any ideas? |
Coxhaus, USB/SPDIF converters do make a difference, I am using Yulong U-18 with great result after trying a bunch (including Off-ramp4 with all options). The iUSB Power works on passive converters but has minimum impact on Yulong, which already have a robust active power supply. You do need two USB cables with the iUSB, I found USB cables make a small difference (don't use stock computer cable though), but coaxial digital cable makes a big difference. |
I am considering buying an AMR 777 DAC. Have any of you guys tried the Berkeley Alpha USB feeding the AMR 777? Do you think it will sound better using a Berkeley feeding a BNC input? What is the ifi iUSBPower unit? Does it require 2 USB cables? I have an Audioquest Diamond USB cable is it a good match with the AMR? I want to test this unit with the best possible setting. |
I am on my 2nd AMR DP-777 after 1.5 years of ownership, and I am still highly satisfied by its sound. Look at my 300+ audiogon feedback, and you know very few pieces stay in my system for more than a year. Well, I wish the bass of DP-777 is slightly faster and tauter (like Wadia?), and I believe you can get more excitement with other DACs playing hard-rock music. But I won't sell my DP-777 any time soon. It's very easy to get a good DAC these days: Esoteric, Benchmark, Lavry, Metrum... just to name a few, with clean, clear sound and ultra high resolution, superb definition plus the "WOW" factor for the first few minutes. And yes, there's nothing wrong with these products. However, it is very HARD to find a musical DAC for the long run, DP-777 is such a DAC. Ask die-hard analog fans why they don't listen to digital, spend a good 3 hours with LP (do young kids actually sit there listen that long?) and try to listen to the same cut in digital again. Nothing is the best and everybody has his/her priorities. I won't use DP-777 for studio monitoring (nobody should), but to connect my spirit with music, I can hardly think of any other DAC under $5000. Happy listening. |
Kzhtoo, Give Darren at Avatar Acoustics a buzz for the fuse. They're like $20. You need the 20mm .25amp one. Stock value is .20amp, but going over is OK. Then you just open the power supply chassis from the screws on front, pry the black fuse protector open, pop out old fuse and plug in new one. 3 minutes work. I noticed Create Audio has cheap audiophile fuses as well at $10. Their tubes are praised so I bought one to try in my new DAC once it breaks in. |
Audiofun, In which ways do you feel the DP777 is in another league then the Octave? I concede my buddy's (actually a friend of Jriggy's too) AMR had the older circuit board which is said not to sound quite as good, but it wasn't that there was a difference we struggled to hear and gave the nod one way--we both flatly preferred the Metrum to the extent my friend sold his at a loss. Yes indeed both my friend and I are using the AMR fuse and it makes a big difference. So did Herbies footers I found. I'm selling my Metrum now to try a LampizatOr Gen 4/Level 4, but if it doesn't live up to my hopes (like the Gen 3/Level 3 didn't) I may return to Metrum. |
I have owned the Octave and used it with the Cynosure USB cable (which I owned at the time) and the Diverter HR (which I owned at the time) the BEST USB-->SPDIF converter I have ever heard.., along with that I installed the AMR fuse in the Octave. Was it good. HECKS YEAH!!!! It was good. One of the best sounds I had heard and as someone who has heard the $90K CH-Precision dac at a friends home, I would say that I would MUCH prefer to listen to the Octave/Diverter HR combination. Now having said all that I will state again as I have in other posts that the Octave is NOT in the same league as the AMR...period. I wanted it to be better because it is less expensive (not by much when you consider the Diverter is about $3K alone) but it simply could npt deliver the goods like the AMR DP777. If you have not replaced the stock fuse in the Octave with the AMR fuse, you have no idea what the Octave is capable of, yet and still it is out-gunned. Now, lets be fair... it is a roughly $1k dac that I think beats up most dacs out there regardless of price. The AMR either direct into my Graaf GM 200 Graaf Modena or my Thaumaturges or via my MFA Ref or Baby Ref simply outperformed my Octave in the areas of naturalness and flow. Even my (then girlfriend) immediately chose the AMR as the goto device). Lately I have been downloading hi-res files (just bought Glad Rag Doll / Diana Krall) and that dac is just as killer on my hi-res as it is on well recorded RB material. I have not heard the Hex... I was going to purchase one, but honestly I have been so pleased with the level of sound I am getting now that I am in no hurry. Perhaps I will find someone who lives near me and get a chance to hear the Hex. I now use the DP 777 with the ifi iUSBPower finding that is better than the Dynex hub I found and used to use in front of ALL usb dacs including my former Diverter HR as it simply makes them all sound more natural. The AMR DP 777 was the least affected by the hub but it did improve it a bit. The iUSBPower went even further. Just my 2 cents. |