The unpalatable truth is most people’s hearing is very lacking when it comes to hearing notes and tones and timbre.
How many have actually played a musical instrument or been close enough to one to adsorb the sonic expressions and delicacies.
Sing or hear a real human voice up close.
I believe this is the reason why lots of audiophiles go for high priced equipment recommended online or in magazines to show that they’re audiophiles.
But when it comes to cables they honestly can’t hear a difference so they insist it’s audiofoolery.
I remember a cooking show where chefs tasted everyday food blindly, they had about an 80% failure rate.
You can’t be a chef if you can’t taste the difference between an apple and a pineapple.
How many can’t tell the difference between CD quality and DSD? It’s just more hocus pocus....lol
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Cost, I think, is the main factor for not providing a better power cord. The other reason could be that the outcome is system dependent with the characteristics of the speakers playing a major role.
My hypothesis is: difficult to drive speakers are more sensitive to the quality of the PC and vice versa. Opinion?
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My hypothesis is: difficult to drive speakers are more sensitive to the quality of the PC and vice versa. Opinion?
If there was a difference, then it should be happening when there is more need to have greater current flowing in. So ^your hypothesis^ makes sense.
if the electrical signal coming out of the amp was changed (like playing the same content and comparing the captured signals), then we would know that there is a real difference.
How hard would that be to do?
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Ya. I wish someone can do some tests and measurements. It would be nice.
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Electrical engineering theory in the strict sense makes sense regarding this discussion, and when looking at high quality power supplies, one can see that any RF noise coming from the wall to the power supply should be easily shunted away. That said, there are obviously some subjective observations that have been made by MANY when swapping out power cords noting sonic improvements. I for one am one of them... Being skeptical, I thought that power cords wouldn't make a hill of beans difference, however I tried power cords with neodymium magnets on both ends by the plugs on my power-amp (I don't know what other mechanisms in the power cords were at play). Even before I dropped the needle on the album, I noticed a slightly blacker background and when playing music, I did notice a slight improvement in micro-detail (m I assume due to the lower noise-floor). So, to make sure I wasn't "hearing" things, I did a blind swap-out of the two power cords with my audiophile buddy doing the listening. He too heard the same changes with the experimental power cords. So, there's really something to this power cord thing. The biggest issue for me is setting my personal "Law of diminishing-returns" on stereo equipment and especially cabling of ANY kind ! The discretionary $$$ coupled with some semblance of common-sense seems to prevail with me.
One thing I've adopted regarding measurements... If it measures well and sounds good, it's good... If it measures well but sounds bad, it's bad... If it measures bad but sounds good, perhaps you're measuring the wrong things !
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Acoustic and psycho-acoustic can explain and describe sound perception not electronical engineering alone and especially not only measuring tool compared to human ears when it is a question of TIMBRE recognition for example...
Simple but too complex to understand for most...
Then imagine geopolitic historical understanding ? Sorry but it is so.... It is impossible to discuss these matter here anyway, be it geopolitic or psycho-acoustic Audio threads are about "tastes" and price tags😁😊
Like children in a yard: good and bad people, subjectivist and objectivist... Rightwing/leftwing, ETC...
The unpalatable truth is most people’s hearing is very lacking when it comes to hearing notes and tones and timbre.
How many have actually played a musical instrument or been close enough to one to adsorb the sonic expressions and delicacies.
Sing or hear a real human voice up close.
I believe this is the reason why lots of audiophiles go for high priced equipment recommended online or in magazines to show that they’re audiophiles.
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Geez! I have about maybe a $50k system, good ears, and have experimented with cable upgrades and other tweaks for years. Here’s my take:
If you have ample, good, clean power feeding your components upgrading the power cables makes essentially no difference. If you have to listen really really hard, until you think you’re hearing a difference-- you are, but it’s in your head, not the cable-- so long as your cables are not damaged or set wrong.
Interconnects will make some small but occasionally important differences-- however, this will not equate to spending more money equals better fidelity. Beyond a certain level of build and materials they don’t improve per se, you cannot rank their sound quality by price, you choose what you think sounds best -- but remember confirmation bias will often induce you to believe that paying more for a thing means it must be better, whether or not the difference is real or in your head.
Contact enhancers -- these can help if your connections are poor, oxidized, dirty, etc. This is what I think some people hear after spending a lot for some contact enhancer tweak-- what they are really hearing is that they have cleaned up and reset all of their connections-- and likely NOT the fluid they have just applied. Same thing with fuses. Beyond that it’s almost certainly placebo.
Designer fuses -- among the biggest scams out there IMO -- but sometimes replacing an old fuse set in a heavily oxidized holder-- with a new (and correct) fuse-- will make a bit of difference-- but more because the contacts have been reset just by changing the fuse, NOT because that fuse you spent $100 or more on has some special audio magic.
Why do I say this? Experience, and, that (for decades now) when A-B testing is done with these sorts of items on a good sounding, well connected system, no one is able to quantify the cost of the tweak with the quality of the audio. No one.
So look, if you have the money and prefer an interconnect cable that costs thousands of dollars per meter, then why not?
But many people have a decent system and not a lot of money. They’re looking for upgrades that they can do to make it sound better, but really don’t have the money to do major equipment upgrades. They might have to put that mega-expensive power cable on a charge card and pay a ton of interest on it before it’s paid off for example.
Some may not have been in the hobby long enough to learn some of these lessons and are attracted by the "amazing claims" that many but not all of these sorts of companies are prone to make. I do feel like this is kind of taking advantage of people.
If you have decent components and cables, and can’t or don’t want to replace some or all of them, but also feel that your system is lacking that certain something, as boring as this sounds, look to the room, not the gear.
Start by getting your speaker placement right, try some minimal room sound treatment to absorb reflections, clean up your wiring behind the system to avoid interconnects and power cables running parallel to each other, and then live with those changes for a while. You will almost certainly hear a profound and obvious improvement in sound quality that goes far far beyond what you will ever get out of a bottle of quantum contact cleaner, stupid expensive power cables, or interconnects that site some completely goof-ball physics theories that have informed their design and construction.
More than anything else-- keep your mind open, live with the changes for a while, and don’t try really hard to hear a difference. If there is any improvement you will come to that conclusion naturally over time as your ears acclimate to the changes that you have made. Good? Worse? Nothing? Only time will tell.
Now go play some music!
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Interesting presentation but I do not agree with him. To each his own.
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Gene mentioned the Romex behind the wall in the video. I don’t see how that come into play. The Romex and the miles of cables before the wall outlet do not matter. There is no physical flow of matter from one end to the other end of the cable. The electrons vibrates at 60 Hz from the same point. Take care of this vibration and you take care of the problem. After all, our energies are derived from these vibrations.
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The holy war continues...
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I ditched my power cords, and while I was at it, tossed my VAC tube amp, my Focal Sopras and my Project turntable out of the window. Instead, I just hire the actual singers now. I found them to be a bit analog for my tastes. I keep trying to reposition them in the room. Room positioning is under rated. Some singers don’t like to move, while others don’t stop moving. Dealing with the spittle is now a problem, as is room size. They don’t have a setting for that. And they don’t like to be told to stop in the middle of a song when I change my mind. I think I might have to get rid of the actual singers and go back to a simple set up of normal gear, normal speakers and normal power cords. I may have taken this too far.
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I tried power cords with neodymium magnets on both ends by the plugs on my power-amp (I don't know what other mechanisms in the power cords were at play). Even before I dropped the needle on the album, I noticed a slightly blacker background and when playing music, I did notice a slight improvement in micro-detail (m I assume due to the lower noise-floor).
If there was a reduction of noise with no Musial signal, then it almost seems like we could measure the RMS AC noise at the speakers and see it then?
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You can, use a sensitive multimeter (4-1/2 digit) for an absolute value that can be converted to dB, or a good, sensitive audio measurement system like REW to listen to the speaker in a close-miked manner... usually at the tweeter since this is where the abundance of noise lives.
You can also use any of a number of free audio digital editing systems to sample the close mic data and see the reductions. Like the BS goes: follow the science.
it ain't quantum physics... uhm, but in the final analysis: ad reductum infinitude... it really is. Have fun.
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The argument that the power cable is a parallel element does make some sense. After all, the power supply filter elements are in parallel. Why would it make any difference after all the electricity has traveled miles before it reaches the power supply filters.
But electricity is not like water. The electrons don’t travel from one end to another. If you use water as an analogy, you will come up with the wrong conclusion.
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Here is another way to put it. The miles of filthy water upstream do not matter as long as it is filtered and cleaned before it enters the faucet. Similarly, the miles of filthy power before the wall outlet do not matter as long as it is cleaned before entering the amp.
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You can, use a sensitive multimeter (4-1/2 digit) for an absolute value that can be converted to dB, or a good, sensitive audio measurement system like REW to listen to the speaker in a close-miked manner... usually at the tweeter since this is where the abundance of noise lives.
Thanks @piaudiol I just do not hear anything when the volume is up, but there is no content.
If I heard hissing abate when the thing was plugged in, I would be a believer, but maybe I am lucky as it cannot get darker than pitch black. Or maybe my hearing is bad or my background noise level is too high to hear it, or the power is good where I am at?
I have no experience like this description:
Even before I dropped the needle on the album, I noticed a slightly blacker background
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Holmz - system noise is a lot like the Joni Mitchell lyrics " ...you don't know what you've got 'til it's gone..."
Until I recently retired I produced an electrical line filter oriented to the audio/video industry: the UberBUSS, along with other power line devices. It is a completely different approach to power filtration. Non-inductive with Power Factor Correction and parallel passive filters. I had many customers tell me that they didn't have line noise, but wanted to try one anyway. I offered a 30-day, 100% Money Back Guarantee. My total returns were < 0.3%. My skeptical customers all said "I had no idea what true background blackness (lack of noise) really meant. That return percentage also included power cabling - you know: those things that don't make any difference.
For a skeptic's recent experience, watch Chris' Vinyl Attack video:
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@piaudiol
So I guess the inclusion of the video is implicitly meant to convey that your gear was not measurable as different, and could only be heard as different?
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Uhm, no. Not what I said. Basically, BS walks, money (as in returns) talks.
With video, blacks are blacker, color saturation is visibly more even and image demarcation (image edges) are sharper. Eyes tell the truth that sometimes ears can’t hear.
In addition, using one of these on a TV with an IEC power inlet is (was) even better. Doesn’t matter, you can’t buy one and they NEVER show up on the used market.
BTW: Dave paid full price.
Positive Feedback Brutus Award 2013 by Dave Clark:
Pi Audio MPC/Mini++ AC Cord
www.piaudiogroup.com
Based on 14 ga cryogenically treated copper with Furutech plugs, Pi Audio MPC/Mini++ (14 ga cryogenically treated copper - 1.5 meter $499) does wonders on any Mac Mini. You get a boost in all the stuff you want without a boost in all the stuff you don’t want. What I mean is that compared to a stock cord, music takes on more drive and a dimensional palpable presence. Resolution is improved seven-fold; the music flows out into the room with a natural ease and liquidity, and you hear it all in a way that is never fatiguing or non-engaging. The music has that quality of there being less crap in the way… that is, one can simply hear more of the music. Same with the Aquila… something cool is going on here! I will say though, that if you want to use one, and the AQ Carbon Ethernet cables, then Dave Elledge has to be told ahead of time, as the two cable ends tend to fight over what limited real-estate exits on the rear of the Mac. Apple has the IEC and Ethernet connections very close together… so close that I was only able to use one or the other… but not both till Dave modified the IEC by trimming it down a bit. Even so, it is still a tight fit.
In the end, I have found the MPC/Mini++ to be a wonderful addition to the computer-based audio rig… so much so I bought the review sample. Give one a try, and you too will be smitten. I know I am and have purchased the review sample!
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Although there is some RF coming in through the power line, most of the RF noise injected into our systems come from the nasty garbage we have in the room with our equipment. Namely, all digital equipment, laptops, desktops, microwaves in the next room, CFL light bulbs, LED light bulbs, the list goes on. Our digital stuff is tested to meet FCC Class B emissions but those emissions have nothing to do with audio, rather they are all concerned with the guy next door being able to watch TV via an antenna without interference while you play CDs or stream. We can worry about RF on the power lines for sure, but let's also clean up our stereo listening room.
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..dare I post this?…yeah why not. I’m a retired EE that didn’t listen to the podcast nor did I read all the predictable pro/anti responses. First let me say that this whole cable brouhaha isn’t life or death any more than the logic behind car purchase, etc. if someone wants to spend drawerfuls of cash on cables and has the means then WHOGAF..I mean literally why should anyone get their panties in a twist?…it’s their money right? As I said above I’m a retired EE having worked in power distribution for 40 years and am as skeptic as it comes re tweaks. Several years ago regarding the PC debate I thought what the heck I’ll see for myself. I borrowed a couple of “exotic” power cords from a local dealer and did the A/B thing. Much to my surprise there was a difference…who’d have guessed! Long story shorter I bought a compliment of used Lessloss power cords, 5 in total for about $300 each and have never looked back. Can I explain exactly why they sound better than the OEM cables with some sort of RLC deep dive? Nope not really and I don’t care to. This is not an attempt to sway anyone re the efficacy of upgrading PCs…to each his or her own as they say. Well anyway that’s my story and I’m sticking with it. Now back to enjoying my music..LOL..
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We were in a self-imposed quarantine from the digital highway and I just saw the posts. It was glorious...
I wanted to comment on this post:
"So I guess the inclusion of the video is implicitly meant to convey that your gear was not measurable as different, and could only be heard as different?"
The video I linked has nothing to do with "my gear". The video I linked contained commentary on the experiences of a pretty well respected YouTube personality after a visit to GR Research... not my company. Just because Chris commented about the cable risers has nothing to do with my former products. There are numerous people here on A-gon that can speak to the things I built for them if they wish.
"My gear", the BUSS-Line of power treatment devices, has been reviewed, analyzed and measured for years. A search engine is your friend. The power cable I linked to was reviewed... and measured for changes in noise floor and frequency response by others. It was the subject of numerous blind tests and was overwhelmingly identified as superior time after time. Again: I never had a return of this, or any other of my power cables, even given a 100%, no questions asked return policy.
An aside for anyone using a Mac computer for a music server: try listening with the stock power cable. Then, invert the polarity of that cable (easy because of the IEC C7 connector). Then report back what YOU hear. I never comment on what, if any, differences will be heard. I don’t want to influence confirmation or anticipation bias. This is what A/B listening tests are all about. Have a friend help to eliminate any bias.
At some point, since music enjoyment is the goal, we have to trust our ears and preferences or find another obsession.
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An aside for anyone using a Mac computer for a music server: try listening with the stock power cable. Then, invert the polarity of that cable (easy because of the IEC C7 connector). Then report back what YOU hear. I never comment on what, if any, differences will be heard. I don’t want to influence confirmation or anticipation bias. This is what A/B listening tests are all about. Have a friend help to eliminate any bias.
At some point, since music enjoyment is the goal, we have to trust our ears and preferences or find another obsession
@piaudiol
Ok this is timely.
My main source is the TT.
However, I have an old CD player (90s), and a new AVR that can act as a Roon end point, and then I can plumb that into the preamp.
If I used the MAC would that be with 1/8” to RCAs?
Or over ethernet to the AVR?
(And does it work on an Intel NUC as a Roon server?)
On the MacBook (laptop) the IES goes into a power supply which plugs into the computer as a DC source. SO flip that 180? Or does it need to be into something without the AC—>DC converter?
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If I used the MAC would that be with 1/8” to RCAs?
Or over ethernet to the AVR?
(And does it work on an Intel NUC as a Roon server?)
On the MacBook (laptop) the IES goes into a power supply which plugs into the computer as a DC source. SO flip that 180? Or does it need to be into something without the AC—>DC converter?
OK, I'm just a tad confused by your questions. Please clarify this question
If I used the MAC would that be with 1/8” to RCAs?
Also, which MacBook power supply do you have? If it is the 85W MagSafe, just try inverting the power supply at the wall. Listen to it one way and then turn it over and give it a listen... Report back on any changes you may )or may not) hear. I'm not sure how power polarity affects the wall wart supplies. They are very different from the Lite-On supplies in the mini. My power cable was specific to the Mac mini.
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I'm not sure how power polarity affects the wall wart supplies. They are very different from the Lite-On supplies in the mini. My power cable was specific to the Mac mini.
Ok I am with you now.
I’ll disregard, as I don’t have the small Mac.
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Disregard the cable, I’m retired.
Do try the wall wart connection inversion. You may find one orientation as superior. Let us know how this works out for you.
Above all have fun and this hobby/obsession is all about serving the music in the best manner for maximum enjoyment!
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Interesting thing that perhaps nobody has mentioned here is that power calbles have the same type of effect on overall sound like the ic's and speaker cables from the same line of products of some manufacturer (cardas and nordost for example)
That tells me that certain manufactureres obviously know more about ways to 'manipulate' the sound than ordinary consumers. Also, I believe that nobody is happy that power cables have become the 'thing' to have and to spend money on, if you wish your system to sound at its best.
People who do not hear or do not care about it will certainly save some money but I still I did not hear a system that could not be improved with carefull choosing and matching of (all sort) of cables.
For the ones that do not agree with this, I can only advice them to try two very opposite types (soundwise) of power cables, (same goes for thirs ic's and speaker wires) Nordost Valhala and Cardas GR ,on the same piece of gear
If you do not hear the difference than, in a way how your system sounds with one or another type of cable brand, than certainly you can claim that there are not difference between sound of different amps and that all digital sounds tha same, as all is just 1s and 0s.
Some manufacturers do provide power cables with their products that are hard to beat with other brands, Burmester is one of them and Krell Evo 302 power came with its 20A powe cord that also I could not 'beat' with some other brands (aldo my search for it was limited, as I thought that it sounded good like it is)
The only thing I still wish to try ia Atmasphere's (whom I admire very much) claim that on truly balanced devices influence of ic's is insignificant, if any. I have owned many other balanced products, but not any of his and I am looking for opportunity to try some of his products, soundwise first, of course but also for that 'curiosity' that I have mentioned
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