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Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

in a recent thread there was much discusion of the above 2 amps, whether the Berning was indeed an OTL, and which one might be better.

i have no opinion as to whether the Berning is an OTL. but today a Berning ZH270 owner brought his amp over to compare to my pair of Tenor 75wi's. my system is OTL friendly, with easy to drive speakers, so the Berning's acknowledged advantage in driving difficult loads was neutralized.

these amps have very similar power, the Tenor is 75 watts into 8 ohms, the Berning is 70 watts into 8 ohms. otherwise it is not really a fair comparison....the Tenors are $19900 a pair, the Berning $4500, the Tenors weigh 70 pounds each, the Berning weighs about 10 pounds.....it seems like Goliath verses David. the result is somewhat closer than that.

we played three different discs and each of 3 people listened to their disc in the sweetspot. the Berning owner felt that the Tenor had a more dimentional sound, deeper soundstage but felt the Berning was equal in bass extension and detail retreival. the independent listener felt the Berning was excellent for the money but not in the league of the Tenor in any paramter. my perception was similar to the independent listner; that the Berning, at $4500, is amazing in it's top to bottom excellence, dynamics and musicality.....but....does not do things like the Tenor. the sense of space, detail in the soundstage, texture and microdynamics of the Tenor are at a whole different level.....and they better be for $15000 more.

like the Berning owners, i am a shameless Tenor lover and consider the Tenors better than any other amp i have heard at any price, assuming a reasonably easy load to drive.

the Berning is more like a $8k to $10k amplifier.....and Berning owners should be justifiably proud of their amps.

i did think the Berning had slightly more bass slam than the Tenor, but with much less bass articulation and extension than the Tenor.

we spent the rest of the enjoyable afternoon listening to some great vinyl......an enjoyable time had by all.
mikelavigne
thorty40
149 posts
 
This is silly, the Berning will compete easily with the Tenors. Sorry Jtinn, I WILL put my money where my mouth is, I have no reservations. I don't care how much $$$$ we are talking about, money does not always equate better sound. Let the people be the judge in this instance, "Lets get ready to rumblllllle!!!!". :)

If the Berning is embarrassed by the Tenors, then so be it. If the opposite happens, then be prepared to face the music. I am ready to face off, lets go. Enough talk, if the Tenors are + $15,000 better then lets hear it and be done. This is totally silly until we face off. Let the audiophiles decide!! :)

This is alot of fun, I don't care what criticism becomes of this.

I also don't care when this happens, lets just be civil about it and arrange something, even if its at a CES or whatever. This is great :) Jtinn, this is great thread whether you like me or not :)

Best Regards,
Chris

twl
3,251 posts
 
I believe that Mike was being genuine in his efforts to get a good shootout. He didn't have to do this and has nothing to gain. His system is better than most of us will ever hear. It is optimized for his Tenors, and you can't expect him to buy all new interconnects and speaker cables just to have a shootout. So I accept his findings for exactly what they are. A one time comparison with his system where the Tenors sounded better. I don't feel any less "good" about my Berning amp as a result of this. In fact, I am happy that it is thought highly enough of to rate a shootout with the top rated amps in the world. Not all comparisons will come out the same.I thank the participants for their efforts and trouble in doing this to report to us. We Berning owners can feel good knowing that with NOS tubes and a well matched system, the Berning amps go to a much higher level over the stock tubes, not a subtle difference. In my mind, this will take the Berning up to a level that is plenty close enough to anybody's amp. So why should I care if someone else likes Tenor's a little better in their system. I know mine sounds great and that is all that matters to me. For the cost-no-object guys, if they feel that the difference is worth all that money, they should go for it. It's their money and their system. We all want to feel happy with our systems and whatever it takes to get there is what we do as audiophiles. I am not a cost-no-object guy and I got top quality sound for a miniscule fraction of what Mike spent for his super system. I am happy with that. I'm sure Mike is happy with his. Let's all be happy and look forward to the next shootout with a Seigfried or the new Monoblocks. Can't wait!
kenschwarz1742
2 posts
 
You will miss out on what your amp can do if you put it on a steel shelf or even inches away from a steel case, component stand steel frame, or component with a big transformer. The ZH-270 chassis is non-magnetic for a reason. Give it a try before spending any $$$!
allanbhaganinfo
121 posts
 
Twl, yes, it was a, "can I listen the my amp in your awesome system" type of deal, not a real shoot out but I think the ZH-270 was surprising to the listeners.

I did not expect Mike to get new interconnects but the comparison should not have been that critical and maybe it as not, but some are trying to make it seem so, we all know the differences that and IC can make, it was an insertion of an amp for a quick comparison, not a true one on one, like some are making it out to be.

Although, yes, the Berning showed some of its true nature, it did not show all of its true nature, with a handicap of a much different IC, a 6 year old model and in a system tweaked for the Tenor, as well without trying different feedback positions, almost defeated the purpose altogether.

Those of you that know Berning amps, also know that the feedback positions are not subtle, with the Tenor being a 0 feedback, the low feedback on the Berning should have been tried, those of you that have tried different IC's also know that is not a subtle change.

So all this talk about Taurus's and BMW's, are only meant to distract.

One on one, on equal turf, that's all the guys are asking for now.
If there are any Audio Societies out there that are willing, I am sure there will be Berning owners more than happy to make their amps available.
oneprof
147 posts
 
Mikelavigne, thanks for the reply. I didn't have a chance to check things here for a few days, so I just saw your reply today! I just got some NOS tubes for my Berning, following the recommendations of people here. I'll listen to the Berning for a while like this. I HAVE been considering purchasing Joule or Atma-sphere for a while (almost bid on a pair here on Audiogon up for auction a few weeks back but needed a better CD player more), mostly because I have Merlins and Bobby always demos them with Joule electronics. Of course, Merlins would not be a difficult load for the Tenors, my question to Jtinn was more 'hypothetical' than based on what I need for my current system.
By the way, if things work out, I'd be the 99th post on this thread--almost up to 100!
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