Age old discussion I know but MM or MC? Benefits?

I'm firmly in the moving iron court. The SoundSmith Carts are setup dependent because he uses the CL stylus, specially cut. It is sensitive, but so is a Shibata tip. If it's not elliptical or conical it will need very precise azimuth, SRA and skate control.

I have had exclusively MM carts for the past 40 years until I got the SoundSmith Voice. It's a high output MI, but if you want low output he has them too. I believe as you get fast you must sacrifice output. Those high end, low output carts at SoundSmith are very fast and great for classical and opera, hence the names of the carts. For rock and jazz the Sussaro would be quite adequate

You really have to listen to them to make a determination.

MI all the way ! People named Leonard are almost always right !

Leonard the Cooper, funny kind of name : )... but he´s simply right.
Welcome to A´gon

The essence of a HQ cartridge: low moving mass of stylus/cantilever ass´y. I have known it for thirty years already.

Best regards,

Well, i have Joseph Grado Signature XTZ (MI) cartridge, but i can’t say that MM cartridges like the Grace Level II (or F-14 LC-OFC), AT-ML180 OCC, Pioneer PC-1000mk2, Stanton CS100 WOS are on the lower level, they are even better than MI. Life is not so simple!

Don’t forget the superb Moving Flux cartridges like the Glanz MF61

Chakster, you got it all wrong. I never said the MM´s you just mentioned are inferior to MI´s mentioned by Leonard. On the contrary, they are as good some even better. This all comes down to TA´s and decks used, really. Audio life is hardly ever simple but audiophiles are using different equipment to evaluate quality/quantity differences in their carts, TA´s, preamps etc. The quality of one´s preamp and deck in particular is essential, not to mention a TA he´s using for a certain cart in question.
You are both right, in fact. Leonard´s experience tells an other side of the truth we are seeking for here.

And yes, the GLANZ MFG 610LX is a superb performer, in my system.

@harold-not-the-barrel but my post was addressed not to your statement, but to @schubert 's "MM all the way" 

P.S. I'm still not sure the MFG 610LX is equal to earlier MF61 which i have never seen for sale in many years. 

Answer noted. Don´t worry about the MFG 610LX. I think it was only for the European market thirty years ago but it´s superb nevertheless.

Chackster, I said MI all the way not MM .
And that for classical which was the post before that .

Well, well well indeed.
Hard to say which was the big mover as I made a number of changes at once.
Nottingham Analog Spacedeck cw Shelter 501 mk3 mc cart.
Also built a new rack using 2" maple boards and allthread and moved everything over and took time to tidy up all the wiring.
But...the music, oh the music.
NEVER has vinyl sounded so sweet in my system, so much air and just well soul is best words I can come up with.
Not that I thought so at first as first l.p. on was in through the out door by led zep, must be a poor recording as I thought, umm, soso.

Then I slipped on in the dark by grateful dead....ooh yes please, that hit the spot indeed. Followed with number the brave by wishbone ash and dark side of the moon by Floyd.

Just....heaven. Money very well spent imho.

In my experience, as I have moved to more expensive cartridges, all the sound parameters have improved; always worth the investment. If you aren't going above the $1200 or so ceiling on MM, then MM or MC is your choice.  Generally, they are priced pretty respective of performance.

I am lucky, I have and use both MC and MM cartridges.  One tt set up for MM and the another for MC.  I listen to classic rock most of the time so the MM is used a lot.  The late 80's to present vinyl seem to sound better with the MC.   Currently my too cartridges are: AT-150MLX with a ATN150Sa Shibata stylus and for MC i use DL-103r with a hardwood body or a AT-33PTG/II

My first posting here, apologies if it is long, and I'm an absolute newbie, so apologies if the questions are such basic common knowledge, but I am hoping to learn from those who are knowledgeable.  So I'll quote three:

lewm:"  If Robjerman's rationale were correct (about MCs being superior because of having lower moving mass), then Moving Iron (MI) cartridges should rule, because MI cartridges have lower moving mass than do MC cartridges.  On top of that they generally have higher signal voltage output which makes the job of the phono stage much easier, in that the phono stage needs to provide much less gain for an MI, and much much less gain for an MM than for any MC.  With gain comes distortion and noise.  (One disadvantage of a LOMC cartridge.) Also, contrary to your assumption, I would argue that very little to nothing has advanced in the area of cartridge design, in the past 9 years since Raul opened his thread."

And chakster: " It’s always nice to get rid of all additional cables, suts, headamps etc, just to connect your MM to the phono stage to get the decent loud sound."

And leonardcooper: "  I believe as you get fast you must sacrifice output."

I am left wondering, with the various comments, are these LOMC cartridges a viable choice in a "mainstream" person's setup, as opposed to an "übersetup" where distortion and noise are essentially eliminated?  At some point, isn't the cartridge fast enough?  And, with phono pre-amps, why is there a distinction between MM and MC, when really the distinction is with the output voltage?  Aren't phono pre-amps for MC, or such low output cartridges, also more, if not much more, expensive than the MM pre-amps, everything else being equal?  It seems they are all designed for MM, and then some add the MC, and then others add the MC with different levels of adjustment for the vastly different outputs among the LOMC.  What is the lowest output MM and what is the highest output MC?  And finally, what drawbacks have prevented MI from being the top choice?

@the_treble_with_tribbles

The lowest output (0.6 mv) MM cartridge is Stanton 980LSZ - an old exciting magnetic cartridge design concept from the 1980. The 980LZS offer "low impedance" and will work directly into the Moving Coil (MC) input instead of MM input. It provides extended frequency response well beyond 50kHz. The 980LZS patented moving stylus system featured a Stereohedron nude diamond and ulta-low mass samarium cobalt magnet which allows it to track the highest levels found on the most sophisticated high technology records. It is insensitive to cable capacitance and load impedance above 100 ohms. Mr. Walter Stanton believed to his dying day that NO moving coil cartridge could ever be any good.


SPECIFICATIONS for the 980LZS:

Stylus Type: Nude Stereohedron Contact Radii: .0028 (71u)
Scanning Radii: .0003 (8u)Stylus
Tracking Force: 1 gram (+/- 0.5)
Setting with Brush: 2 gram (+/- 0.5) resulting operation tracking force 1 gram (+/- 0.5)
Frequency Response: 10 Hz to 50 kHz +
Output: .06 mv /cm/sec
Channel Balance: Within 1 dB @ 1kHz
Channel Separation: 35 dB @ 1kHz
Cartridge DC Resistance: 3. ohms
Cartridge Inductance: 1.mH
Cartridge Color: Chrome
*Cartridge Weight: 5.5 grams (*Brush weight self supporting 1 gram)
Load Resistance: 100 ohms or greaterLoad Capacitance: 1000 pF, or less (incl. arm leads cable and amp.)

"Aficionados of moving-coil (MC) cartridges will be surprices and pleased to learm that 980LZS is indistinguishable from the very best moving-coil (MC) types in the most rigorous laboratory and aural tests. Stanton’s is an impressive dual archivement. I was continually aware that 980LZS sounded like a moving-coil (MC) cartridge. The bass was well defined and tight with good sonic clarity, as well as transient response and applause definition. Transparency of sound was excellent when reproducing the high recorded levels present on most direct-to-disc recordings. At no time did i notice any coloration of the music. The 980LZS is also, one of the very few phono cartridges that can cleanly reproduce the cannon fire on the Telarc DG-10041 recording of Tchaikovsky’s 1812." - B.V.Pisha (Audio Review, Feb.1982)

Stanton’s 980 LZS cartridge was designed to be used in stereo systems which have high gain, low impedance MC inputs or use external head amps with inputs impedance of 100 Ohms or higher. Since the output of the 980 LZS cartridhe is .06 mv /cm/sec, 20 dB minimum of additional gain is required to step up the voltage to the level of the conventional MM cartridge. The 980 LZS features extremely low dynamic tip mass (resulting in rise time of 100 micro sec.), high compliance (30cu), replaceable stylus assembly designed with samarium cobalt magnet ans Stereohedron stylus tip.

Unlike ordinary high impedance cartridges, the 980 LZS is insensitive to capacitive loading. The Frequency response of the 980 LZS extends to beyond 50kHz in order to assure flawless reproduction of all overtones and signal harmonics which exist and are captured and recorded on modern discs. Although those frequencies cannot be heard directly, their interaction with other frequencies creates subharmonics which are in the audible range. Also any transducer capable of reproducing such high frequencies perform admirably within the audible rangeresponding without hesitation to any transient so vitally important in true recreation of original sound.

Stanton’s 980 LZS cartridge is a Moving Magnet pickup system with low impedance coil allowing the use of long cables between the turntable and preamp.The weight of the 980 LZS which is 5.5 grams, in comparison to relatively heavy moving coil cartridge (8 grams on the average) helps sound reproduction at low frequencies by improved tracking of warped records.

I owned this Stanton and i love Stanton cartridges, my favorite is CS-100 W.O.S signature model with sapphire coated cantilever and Stereohedron tip (very unique stylus/cantilever combo). The output of CS-100 is 3.2 mV.

Speaking about "top choice" you can't go wrong with Audio-Technica AT-ML170 MM cartridge. With this one you can forget about all MC cartridges and MC phono stages of any price. All you need is a normal MM phono stage. This cartridge is among my all time favorites, pretty rare one and much better than the most expensive MC i have owned. 

Dear @ the_treble_with_tribbles: In a " mainstream " set up?, if you are mainly an analog/LP person then top LOMC is second to none, it's perfect? nothing is in audio trade-offs always exist as almost anything in the life.

Distinction between MM and LOMC stages in a phonolinepreamp are mainly that the LOMC cartridges needs at the same time: very high gain ( some times over 80dbs of gain. ), .very low generated noise level and with low distortion level.

Units for MM/MI has around 40-45db on gain. Only for you can imagine what means that very high gain for the LOMC cartridges: doubling the power gain gives you only 3db of additional gain.

More gain means higher noise and level distortion and needs deep knowledge level and skills to design that phonolinepreamp to mantain that high gain with noise/distortions at minimum. That's why is really dificult to find out  good phonolinepreamps that can handle with " no compromises " LOMC cartridges using active devices and when you find out comes with very high price tags.

Drawbacks ?, all cartridge designs it does not matters if LOMC/MM/MI comes with its own trade-offs.

If you have the rigth audio system,  money and know-how levels to make the whole room/system set up and music/sound knowledge and enough " software "/LPs the best choice is LOMC cartridge alternative. Period.

If not then stay away from analog and go to the best alternative that's today digital that comes with very high quality performance levels even over the best analog alternative you can achieve.


Regards and enjoyb the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

I just bought nearly all top MM cartridges from our "best of the month" list over the years, and i also bought several top quality vintage MC cartridges that our "opinion makers" considered the best only a few years ago. I did the same with the vintage tonearms and turntables. I also have had some brand new 21st century top quality LOMC. I even got reference tonearms like Reed 3P just to make sure that those vintage japanese arms are not bad at all. I’m 41 now, hope my hearing ability is ok, i could live forever with MM cartridges from my own edition of the "best of the month" list. I ask myself why do i need all those cartridges, including MC cartridges, 8 different tonearms, 9 different turntables, different phono stages, SUTs etc ??? It’s an interesting process to compare things, but i always return to what i really liked before - those vintage MM cartridges. I’m not the guy who will invest multy thousands on a single brand new cart anymore, enough for me, the vintage MM is the better choise for many reasons. I do have an MC alternative just to prove it for myself. Life is so much easier with vintage top quality MM carts. The rest for the records, no digital! And yes, i like tubes! 

Dear @chakster :  """   i could live forever with MM cartridges from my own edition of the "best of the month" list """

Well, me too but I'm not talking to live with but to live with the best that's a " little " different subject.

Btw, """  And yes, i like tubes! """.  This is your today limitation, that's why too "" no digital !  """

You are " young " and with many years to come with learning experiences  that will beats your today overall audio level and priorities.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

chakster
The lowest output (0.6 mv) MM cartridge is Stanton 980LSZ 

I have to agree the low output top MM's of the day are special and getting harder to come by.

A family relative of your Stanton 980LSZ is the Pickering XLZ-7500 and one I recently purchased with a very low output of .33 mv
and 3 ohm rating.
Another interesting Pickering is the XSV-5000 although not a super
low output at 3.8 mv a very nice sounding cartridge with 
a similar stylus.
 

@totem395 

A family relative of your Stanton 980LSZ is the Pickering XLZ-7500 and one I recently purchased with a very low output of .33 mv
and 3 ohm rating.
Another interesting Pickering is the XSV-5000 although not a super
low output at 3.8 mv a very nice sounding cartridge with
a similar stylus.

Yep, i know.
But my 3.2mV signature Stanton CS-100 W.O.S. with unique sapphire coated cantilever and Stereohedron II stylus was superior to low output 980LZS model. It was also superior to 881s MKII based on Pickering 3000, but improved. 

Stanton CS-100 W.O.S. is a keeper, a great sounding cartridge for 47-100k Ohm preamps. This is very rare model.