Adding an Accuphase A-46

No problem! You're welcome! Yes, keep doing the research and auditioning. Don't rush in too quickly. You can get burned that way.

Hi Nvp & Dave_72, sorry for the delay in replying - been very busy figuring out my next hifi move! You guys have been very helpful - many thanks for all the input!I'm still not sure what I'm going to do but I guess doing the research and audiotioning is half the fun! Thanks again fellas.

Hi Paul,

I am not irritated and upset in the slightest. I just was wondering how you formed your opinions. Too many here on the internet just talk a bunch of trash without real life experience with the product.

Having said that, I appreciate your thorough and detailed explanation.

Getting back to Class A and Class A/B, if the differences between A and A/B are not the significant, then why Class
A. It certainly sounds better to me!

Hi Dave, as you know the damned Accuphase boxes are expensive and addictive (once you have one you will want more). So in the last 4 years or so I've listened rather extensively to quite a few Accuphase units. I did my homework well before both Accuphase purchases.

Of course, these are my opinions so what I have written in my previous post was in no way meant to upset you. Also, my experience with the current models (e.g. E-560 and A-46) is not that extensive. However, IMO the main difference between these models and their predecessors is mostly in the drive, i.e. they sound louder for a given watt indication on the Accuphase meters.

Here are my answers to your inquiries:

The E-560 as a preamp is inferior.

Firstly, about 1.5 years I wanted to buy a A-45 power amp and used my E-550 as a pre-amp. My dealer advice me against it. Then, I wanted to buy a C-2810 and use my E-550 as power amp, and again the dealer advised me against this move. The guy had no agenda as he was the one selling both units. Secondly, somebody I know used for a few months an Accuphase power amp (P-650?) with an integrated Accuphase integrated (E-408?) as pre-amp. The integrated sounded better by itself, however, the integrated was easily outclass after my friend has added a C-2400 pre-amp.

Of course, these are just stories and I did not tested the E-560 as a pre-amp in combination with an A-46. However, as I have mentioned before you loose a lot of flexibility with the E-560 as preamp, e.g. no balance outputs, no selectable preamp gain. Both can make a significant difference (especially if louder listen levels are needed). Also, the C-2110, C-2410/C-2420, etc. are fully balanced design (separate power supplies and AAVA modules for left and right channels, etc. ). Why would Accuphase go through all this trouble if they could print the whole preamp circuitry on a single board (like in the integrated amps)?

The A-46 will not go much louder, when the Accuphase representative told me it would.

Firstly, as Bgpowell has pointed out, 15 watts will not make such a dramatic difference. Secondly, that was my experience with the E-550 vs. the A-45. Now, as I've mentioned before, A-46 will play much more relaxed than E-560 as it has much larger power reserves. That means that the sound will fall apart much sooner with the E-560 than with the A-46. So you can say that the A-46 will go much louder. This brings me to your the last point.

The P-6100 is a better choice than the class A power amps when listening to large orchestras and big bands.

Sound-wise the differences between the Accuphase class A and A/B are not that significant. If one listens to loud volumes and/or music with large dynamic variation (e.g. big bands and large orchestras) then it is better to choose the class A/B power amps, as they are much more powerful and will not clip as quick as the class A ones. One can not be happy with his units if he sees that it is constantly clipping - even if one does not hear any sound degradation durring clipping. Also, it is not a good idea to constantly drive the amp beyond its capabilities. (I have seen the A-45 clipping, while the E-450 was louder and nowhere near clipping; of course, the E-450 was never as refined as A-45). Finally, note also that the large class A/B amps will also have a better grip on large woofers then the class A ones.

I hope that this clarifies things a bit.

Best wishes,
Paul

Ok Paul, how do you know:

The E-560 as a preamp is inferior.

The A-46 will not go much louder, when the Accuphase representative told me it would.

The P-6100 is a better choice than the class A power amps when listening to large orchestras and big bands.

Hi Classact,

I have also answer your other post about the E-560, so maybe this reply is a bit redundant. However, I disagree with some of the things mentioned so far.

Firstly, IMO using the E-560 as a pre-amp is a (big) compromise. Not only it will perform below the entry level Accuphase pre-amp, i.e. C-2110 but you will have only one set of rca output. That is, no balanced pre-out outputs which are important when using fully balanced power amplifiers (e.g. any Accuphase power amps). The C-2410 is in a totally different class than an E-560, and the C-2810/C-2820 are another level higher than C-2410/C-2420.

Secondly, Bgpowell is certainly right about the relation between power and loudness. However, often that is not the whole story. While the A-46 it will not go much louder than the E-560 (though loud enough), it will be much more relaxed when driving difficult loads (or any loads for that matter), it will have better control over the woofer, a more stable soundstage and a more precise stereo image.

IMO the question you should ask is not whether to keep the E-560 (you should go for a dedicate pre-amp), but which power amp to buy, the A-46 or the P-6100. How many watts are you using when listening to music (check out the meter indication on your E-560)? If you listen often to large orchestrates and/or big bands, then you will be better off with a P-6100 power amp. All class A power amps (even the A-65) will eventually clip.

Good lick and keep us posted.
Paul

You're welcome, Classact. Yeah, you could sell the E-560 and get a different preamp. But I don't see going through that hassle as the E-560 makes an excellent preamp.

I talked to one of the guys from the Accuphase factory at CES last week, and he highly recommended the A-46. He said it doesn't give up that much sound-wise to the A-65 and A-200. At a much more advantageous price.

I wish I could have asked him about your situation, but that's life.

You can always email them via their form or email the US distributor, Mr. Menzano.

Food for thought for you.

OK cool, that makes sense and would be a good feature option on all integrateds that have pre-outs.

Actually, I just checked - the E-560's brochure states that an Ext Pre button allows separation of the preamplifier from the power amp section, so I don't think excess heat will be generated if used only as a preamplifier. Thanks for warning anyway Spinaker01.

Good point Spinaker01, I was under the impression that the power amp section of the E-560 shuts down when used as a preamplifier. I'll have to check this with the dealer, as well as various prices of preamps if I decide to upgrade. Thanks.

So the E-560 is going to be run as a preamp only? What about the amp section, is it going to be churning away in class A at idle the whole time?(Class A amps dissipate max heat at idle as there is no load to sink energy into) this seems like a waste both of a good amp and electricity. Seems to me, you would be better served by just going the amp/pre route and selling the E-560.

Thanks guys. I guess other than considerations relating to added power, my concern is how good the preamp section of the E-560 might be. Dave 72 - thanks for your input on this point.

It will make a difference because it will handle transients better.

Well, read up on the A-46. It's more powerful and has more current delivery. More capacitance and bigger transformer and higher damping factor as well. Also, it can be bridged for even more power.Plus, it goes to 360 wpc into 1 ohm.

So therefore, I would say adding the A-46 is a good idea if you can afford it. It would go great with the E-560 as a preamp. The E-560 as a preamp is close to the C-2410. I got my sights set on Accuphase (A-46 and C-2420)myself. Great build quality, made in Japan, and excellent sound. Very hard to dislike.

I have no direct experience with the particular gear referenced. When you double the power of an amplifier, you only get a 3dB increase in loudness. Generally, this is considered to be the lowest significant perception in sound increase most people can discern. So unless you are on the razor's edge of what is needed, it is unlikely to make a significant difference, since this will yield only a 50 percent increase in power.