Hi Guido. Glad to see your still following my slow decent into madness.
Polyester and glue I believe. Seams to work pretty well now that's it's not infesting the entire floor.
I have the "Wings" diffusers coming in shortly and that should be the last of my treatment changes for a while.
Anyone heard SoulSonic speakers? Small manufacturer out of Eastern Europe. Ribbon design with dynamic woofer mounted on a glass panel. Intriguing, but expensive. Trying to arrange an audition. I'll keep you updated. |
Fascinating... Does the carpet provenance make a difference.... Tabriz vs Ardebil? Age... design... Knot count... Backing.... vegetable/mineral dies vs synthetic... Virgin wool vs recycled... Artful flaws... What about antique silk rugs? Perhaps NOS carpets would be ideal?
G. |
"Go to Ikea and buy a pair of bamboo cutting boards and put them under your amps or your rack; it tightens up the image a tad and they are $15- each… I put two under my main rack."
^Vibration control is one area that I haven't addressed. Stillpoints products are among the cost-no-object. Might be interesting for you to check them out and perhaps some others.
"I kept a 7'x9' piece of the carpet as an area rug but the rest was pulled and replaced with faux wood vinyl - looks pretty good actually."
^Matt- is your carpet polyester or the like with glue backing? Wondering if a genuine wool hand-made ("oriental") carpet won't make a difference? Anyone else have a view? -Josh |
We need hire these kids as sound engineers..... |
Talking about our kids is never "off topic"….
Sorry I haven't posted for a bit in regards to my system….
The carpet was removed last week and it took me a while to put the system back together again. I was able to implement a little tweak suggested by Merrill of Merrill Audio… Go to Ikea and buy a pair of bamboo cutting boards and put them under your amps or your rack; it tightens up the image a tad and they are $15- each… I put two under my main rack.
I kept a 7'x9' piece of the carpet as an area rug but the rest was pulled and replaced with faux wood vinyl - looks pretty good actually.
I set everything back up again and moved all the gear back in and let the system cook for 2 or 3 days…. I also pulled all of my absorption out and just left the diffusers on the walls.
I then brought back in the corner base traps and the side and rear wall absorption one at a time. The side wall absorption was subsequently removed as I didn't like the way it sounded and I pulled off all but the center rear wall absorber as well (and the center one has a wood scatter plate to reflect anything higher then about 200-250 hz.) The corner traps were a must.
WHAT A DIFFERENCE!!!!!
Now the room sounds the way it should! And I ordered 10 'Performance Acoustics Labs' Wings as the last step in diffusion. They are fantastic diffusers and are amongst he few diffusers that maintain full diffusion efficacy at 18-24". Most other diffusers needs 6' distance to listener to properly diffuse. They will go on my side walls and adjacent to the center rear wall absorper as I have DEFINITELY decided I like the sound of diffusion over absorption on my first side wall and rear wall reflection points. Absorption clearly gives finer image definition and specificity but you lose air, extension and soundstage width. And rear wall absorption sucks the punch and slam right out of the room (unless you stick to thin 1" diffusers on the rear wall, in which case Im not sure they are doing anything really)…
I will post pictures when I get a chance.
Speaker quest update:
I currently have a list of speakers in the house and am waiting for one last pair to arrive hopefully next Friday…
my current Der Muzik's
Hansen Prince E
Evolution Acoustics Micro Ones
(my Evolution Acoustics MM3's are in crates in my garage if anyone wants to buy them)
Marten Coltrane Tenors
Lawrence Double Bass (hopefully incoming next week)
Boaenicke W8se+
I spent the last 2 days comparing what I have in and trying to narrow them all down. I have definitely learned that with my shorter room and limitations on getting the speakers no more then about 36" off the front wall (wall to back of speaker) that any rear ported speaker is a challenge and probably not the best choice for my room.
my Der Muzik's are sensational and one of the best values in speakers (especially at their pre-owned price), but my totally sealed room with the speakers placed 3' from the short wall is not their ideal setup. Even with the carpet out, they still tend to activate nodes and sound a bit boomy. If I pull them 5' out into the room they sound totally different but I can't without sitting on top of them…. its a shame because if my room where open (like a family room or living room with an open wall) or 4-6' longer then I think I would just keep the Muziks and they would sound absolutely amazing! But for my purposes I made the final decision yesterday that rear ported speakers won't work and that bottom/front port or no port are the way to go in my room based on listening comparisons. They are up for sale and I would love to find them a good home….
I listened extensively to the Evolution Acoustics Micro One speakers. for $4K they are just off the chart ridiculous! Someone told me yesterday they are discontinued, which I think is just a rumor. But they are absolutely amazing and I am might just buy a pair for my office system and sell my Kef R500's which are excellent speakers in their own right…
Boenicke W8se+ arrived yesterday and the dealer could not have been more of a gentlemen. He felt the W13 would probably be a more fair contender for my needs but wanted me to hear the W8SE+ to get a feel for their sound. He also suggested I look into the Soulsonic speakers which look quite intriguing and may work well in my room - I'm continuing a dialogue with the dealer and seeing if he has a demo pair to try… The W8SE+ are SO good for the money. $18K retail and are the no brainer winner for speaker to put in a family room if wife approval factor is a priority! the little 6" driver puts out base that is extended, tight and makes you think there is a sub in the room. And their narrow baffle throws an incredible image and soundstage. In the end, the little 6" driver just couldn't provide the depth, impact and scale that the larger speakers I was listening to can provide. I am holding my final report for 4 days as I let them burn in - the dealer said it makes a big difference…
I currently have the Hansens and the Coltranes in the room and started comparing them yesterday. I have listened to both in the room alone and now compare them head to head. With the vinyl floor everything sounds different so my previous reports of the Hansens are not 100% accurate now, although they are close… When Ive completed my current round I'll report my findings…
I'll compare the winner of those 2 to the Lawrence Double Bass coming next week. I heard the Double Bass at a dealer in North Jersey and they sounded awesome! I look forward to hearing them in my room. they are bottom ported so should connect well with my room.
I only have a few other speakers to consider in the meantime:
Vandy 7
Soulsonic
Perfect8
Scaena
Audio Consulting of Switzerland
I went to John's to hear the Vandy 7 with CTSooner and although they were very good I was not completely taken emotionally by their performance. I am scheduling another visit with John putting his best gear on them and letting them really warm up. If they can't grab me then at least I know I've given them a good solid try…
Audio Consulting, Soulsonic, Scaena and Perfect8 all use ribbons or quasi ribbon tech and have their own special qualities. Some are practically impossible to get into my room to hear them and compare directly with what I currently have to audition. Which, to me, is a problem considering how expensive they are.
A local dealer has Scaena and I may see if he can bring them over… I'm waiting to hear what the Soulsonic dealer can do as well…
The only Audio Consulting of Switzerland dealer is in Nashville and Perfect8 is manufacturer direct and they will offer in home demo if you pay for the system in advance…
Thats where I stand all. Once I get my speaker selection settled then I can try some other DACS that have been offered to me for evaluation. Sorry for the huge side track, but its fun!!!! |
No problem I didn't know this thread had a topic |
LOL....he'd want nothing to do with that, lol. Yes he hears the highs better than any woman I've listened with.
He has hated every speaker he's heard IRT the highs. He has fallen in love with my new Vandersteens though. That's one reason I know that Richard has nailed the highs. Matthew says that he can be part of the music. I think that's his way to saying he feels the emotions. He does have more emotion as we've worked on his feelings since he was a baby as we ID's it all early.
He also can tell me when my speakers aren't set up properly, lol. He doesn't like to come visit that often, but it's fun when he does as we enjoy music together. Sorry to go off topic. |
He probably can hear better than most people. I see a business opportunity here like Consumer Reports but for audio. |
My son has Aspergers (on the autism scale) as well as the sensory processing dysfunction piece. He has never liked listening to my music system, but he loves music. All kinds, always has. He listens with some Sennheiser cans I gave him years ago. He now enjoys listening when I can get him over as I only play him vinyl when he's here. He is able to listen to the Overdrive DAC, but it's the first time he has heard digital at my house and appreciated it. He has said in the past that the sound hurt his ears, but not now after I did all my system upgrades (all new system, lol).
I asked about the phones and he said that he likes the ones I gave him, but not the ones at his friends house. Very interesting stuff and I would love to read more studies on it. |
Here is an interesting vignette shared by a friend of mine: a speaker manufacturer has a young autistic son. His son would typically play in the room while Dad was fiddling and voicing the speakers. He used master tape, vinyl, and vinyl rips to digital as source material. When master tape or vinyl was used, his child stayed in the room. When digital was used, he would play for a few minutes and then leave the room. So, we need digital reproduction that will not drive children and/or small animals from the room.
The whole scenario made me think of this experiment: http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/ |
I don't think they lack it as to they just don't care. My brother loves going to live Symphony but is not interested in music at all at home. |
So true Geardaddy, so true... |
Reproduced sound is OUR passion though and certainly we can expect only a select few to get it. If that weren't the case, then we'd have to expect ourselves to dive head-long into everyone's passions.
Matt- I'm going to be real curious to see how your digital front end turns out in several months once the speakers and other pieces are in place. I'd simply recommend not to forget the critical role that the digital mastering engineer plays in what we hear. Whereas not all vinyl is cut equally, likewise, not all CD mastering efforts are equal. -Josh |
I've had music lovers (and musicians) question this hobby. I get it. Its a razor's edge when it comes to the balance between music and sonics and equipment. Its easy to become a sound whore and drift away from that first love of music. This and other audio sites are a testament to that. I have done it.... |
Matt, it is a gift to be truly enveloped in music. For so many people it's just background stimulation or a fond memory of a time or event in the past. Finding the right mix of performance, sonic attributes and electronic equipment is magical. The best times are when the emotions can well up and the tears fall. I can't imagine this world without music. |
You hit the nail smack on its proverbial head Matt!
Many, many fond music room memories! However, none better then what I experienced after returning home from being hospitalized for 2-weeks in 2010!!! Truly memorable and so glad music provides such happiness for so many of us in this oftentimes wacky, but so wonderful hobby!! |
Wow, Matt, you nailed it. This hobby has those who chase the products and are true audiophiles. That is most of the folks who are into it. Others love listening to music and trying to always 'seriously' listen. Then there are those who loves the toys as well as the music.
Those who love the music, love to critically listen or like you, are enveloped by the music. I'd love to see how folks view themselves. None are wrong as it's a journey and fun. I dislike most components and set ups I have listened to in my life as most just don't pull me in like I need to be. This is becoming a true Hall of Fame thread. |
Great perspective Matt. It truly is a gift |
The Big Picture:
I was speaking with someone the other day about my Audiophilio Nervosa diagnosis and he kept saying he just doesn't get it, or the hobby. I delved deeper and realized that he really didn't listen to much music at all and it hit me like a train... This man completely lacks the capacity to be emotionally moved or otherwise effected by music in any way. It does nothing to him. My incomprehension quickly turned to pity as I thought of what he was missing out on.
I then began to think of how fortunate I was that I have the capacity to not only enjoy music (like my wife who loves listening but it doesn't truly touch her soul) but be truly moved emotionally by it. To be swept away into a place that only a song can take us is a gift that few have. Not just tapping our toes, but a total immersion in the auditory moment to the level that your other senses actually shut down and say to themselves ," geeze, the ears are getting a special treat, let's just shut down for a bit and enjoy the ride...."
We should all count ourselves truly fortunate to have been given this gift. Because many many people lack it. |
Pass had this patent since expired and copied and changed by others..only 25 years have pass-ed.Active low frequency acoustic resonance suppressor. www.google.com/patents/US4899387 Filed 1988 granted 1990
Also change the 90 degree angles all around especially those overhead on and around a soffit. Think aerodynamic flow, rather than crashing head on into a 90 degree brick wall. Not only will they sound better they look better. Ask a wife. |
Oops. And the Vandy 7 - I have not counted it out just yet. |
Carpet is out and they are putting in the new floor as I type. Carpenter coming tomorrow to replace the molding and then I start again. It took me 2+ hours to break the room down, and a serious back ache. It'l probably take me a bit less time to put it back since I went out and got some extra slider and gliders.
The Marten Coltrane Tenors arrived today. Lawrence Double Bass on July 1st and the Boenicke will be here on July 3rd. Hansen Prince E's are already here.
I'm dying to hear how the Muzik's sound with the vinyl floor and compare them all. With a list like this, I have to find something I like and will work well in the room. The only other pair I am seriously considering are the Perfect8's.
Fun fun fun. |
I agree Matt. I have been using computers since the early 80s and always used to laugh how the hot thing that we spent thousands on was outdated a few months later. That is the nature of computers. Antipodes, Aurender, Totaldac, Lumin, and the Aries are all "computers." What we really need are dacs that are truly impervious to their source. |
With the speed at which the music servers are advancing, I just can't justify spending $10k ++ on something that will be improved upon within 2 years.
I have to say that Antipodes seams to lag behind Aurender in terms of product production. Lumin and Aurender seam to produce new product as the technology advances. I like that.
I'm not ready for that just yet. But I'm get close..... |
I'm not surprised that "Guys" have said their computer is as good or better.. What are they going to say :-)
Bob V. is now an Aurender dealer.. I'm sure he'll hook you up.. And I wouldn't be surprised if the new N10 sounds better.. The Aurender guys are pretty on the ball.. |
I spoke with the guys at Aurender at THE Newport show and every one of them said the new N10 is actually better then their older top tier W20....
I'm still working on speakers and room treatments. I'll start trying a few music servers when I hit that point. But I have to say I have spoken to several (read many many) guys at the shows and most said that their computer sounded as good or better then the Aurender, Antipodes, Etc that they compared them with. I reserve judgement for my own ears when the opportunity comes. |
I suggest that much dissatisfaction with digital ( and I'm not saying analog may not be better) is with the front ends folks use.. I'm convinced that a Mac Mini, or an old cd player as transport just doesn't get it. I recently switched to the relatively inexpensive Aurender N100H and the difference between that and an Auralic Aries is shocking. I think that anyone who's trying to do a state or edge of the art digital front end needs to at least consider where the digits are coming from. Comparing a really good TT setup with a really good cartridge to a OK digital setup isn't really fair. To Matt I'd say you really need to get an Aurender to listen to. Mac Mini is ok but nowhere near cutting edge, not close. The Audender W20 would be the one but theres the new N10 or even an N100H would work.. I think you'll be very surprised.. |
Guys, I've been at a couple of high end stores and we listened to the same music on a couple of the ref digital products along side TT/cart combos under 5k (the digital stuff started around 15000 just for the DAC. It wasn't even close. Digital does some amazing things if you can spend enough. You just used the word ease ....that's exactly what it is. Same with live music, You just ease into it. Even listening to live rock that is usually processed and played way too loud, it's still fairly easy to listen to.
I have the OSDE/SE and hope to hear the SX when Steve comes out with it, but it's hard to think digital will beat analog anytime soon. JMHO |
Matt, I agree with your sentiment. Analog (particularly master tape) has a dynamic ease that is hard to beat. A lot of digital just sounds strained and pixelated by comparison.
I am a Lampizator owner and was one of the dissenting opinions on a Whatsbestforum thread on Lampis and turntables. That being said, I recently upgraded to the Golden Gate dac and am no longer dreaming of tables. It is the closest I have heard or owned to a TT. HOWEVER, I do not own a TT and so a side by side comparison has not been done.... |
I have lot's of high rez stuff and yes it gets closer, but I am more relaxed when listening to vinyl and my rig isn't what most of you have I"m sure. I was ready to sell it all and go pure digital when I started my quest, but I listened to my dealer who knows his stuff and am happy I did. I do about 30% vinyl. It's not difficult to change an album, lol. Digital is easier and I like using both. That's just me though. |
Not at all.
Please don't misinterpret my statement. My digital front end is my primary source and will remain to be due to its convenience. But I must admit that every time I have heard an analog rig in the same system as a top tier digital rig, the analog rig just sounds better. Of course, most of the digital source has been red book. Hi-Rez gets closer.
I'm just reporting that, imho, properly done analog still has an edge over digital. |
No, I am more concerned about the music's interpretation. G. |
06-22-15: Mattnshilp
JH - I have given up directly spinning CD's. I rip them or download off the web.
I have actually started spinning more LP's as my system gets better and better. Analog is incomparable. So does this mean the dac quest is back on? |
Disheartening that digital hasn't yet caught up to turntables. No one can say you didn't put any time into trying, Matt! I'll remain blissfully ignorant since getting into vinyl isn't realistic.
Maybe there is merit to MQA?
Do members here, generally speaking, make an effort to select the best digital mastering work for a given album?
- Josh |
Thanks for sharing that last post. I too am going to switch to the powered Vandersteen Quatro for just that reason. I have the opposite situation to Matt's in that I have my system in a medium size loft and the back wall is 43" tall (same height as my Treo's and the Quatro is similar, but I lost some of that room pressure. We all have our cross to bear, lol.
Most of the rooms I've listened in have too many contraptions etc... Fix one, start another.... Once I listened to ONE person whom I learned to trust, my room not only started to sound better, but I loved my system more...
Matt, I totally agree on vinyl. That's why I have been upgrading. No matter how good the digital is getting, it just doesn't do what vinyl does. I do wish I had a reel to reel and metal tapes though ;)..... |
Loudspeakers with Powered Woofers
Some loudspeakers include integral power amplifiers to drive the woofers. Such speakers provide a range of bass-tuning options not possible with conventional passive loudspeakers. A speaker with a powered woofer can be equalized to extend its cut-off frequency, allowing a relatively small-footprint speaker to deliver response to 20Hz. You can also adjust the bass level to best match your room. The ability to adjust each speaker’s bass output independently is a huge benefit, particularly in asymmetrical rooms. For example, if one speaker is in a corner and one speaker has no sidewall next to it, you can dial down the bass level from the corner-located speaker to compensate for its greater room gain.
http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/a-guide-to-better-bass-tas-197-1/ |
JH - I have given up directly spinning CD's. I rip them or download off the web.
I have actually started spinning more LP's as my system gets better and better. Analog is incomparable. |
Matt- great thread! Epic perhaps. Have you permanently moved beyond consideration of incorporating both "computer" and physical disc transports?
Also, do you derive incrementally more listening pleasure from your turntable rig? |
The Bagend, Black hole and subwoofer trick (which I forgot to mention he said to try both in and out of phase) all seam to be doing the same sort of thing.
I'll try the sub trick since I have an extra sub around. If that helps, I'll consider the other technologies. I think an acoustic fix like a Helmholtz is still likely the best solution. |
06-20-15: Mattnshilp
...he suggested I add a sub to the room connected in series from the amps to speakers (high output terminals). He specifically said not to pull the signal low level from the pre-amp. He said to put the sub behind the listening position in the back of the room to balance the pressure in the room, adjusting the output so its not even audible but enough to offset the main speakers output pressurization. Matt, As far as placing a sub in the rear of the room is concerned, it seems worth trying but the concern would be that arrival time differences at the listening position, between the mains and the sub, may compromise coherence unacceptably. And if you set the sub's volume low enough to prevent that, you may find that it is ineffective with respect to its intended purpose. Also, regarding the reference to "series" connection (which strictly speaking is a misnomer, as from a technical standpoint the sub and mains would be connected in parallel): Assuming the amps are in the front of the room, as you most likely realize it would be best to connect the amps directly to the main speakers, and to run separate connections from either the main speakers or the amp to the sub. Also, as you probably realize, if the sub is a powered one the cables to it would not have to be heavy gauge (even 22 gauge or smaller would work fine) since powered subs have high input impedances (e.g. 10K or more), and hence draw very little current. Regarding the BagEnd product, if you haven't already seen it you will want to check out Kal Rubinson's review. Also, you may want to look into the Spatial Black Hole. I have no experience with or particular knowledge of either product. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
Hmmm, "Fixing" acoustic anomalies by applying subwoofers out of phase to perform destructive low band-pass interference... Fascinating... Sounds like fighting a fire with... Well, fire.
Might work to a point. Yet, I am skeptical about the long term appeal of the end product... Seems a one-way route down an endless audiophrenic rabbit-hole.
G. |
Not over-pressurized. Just pressure imbalance.
Don't know. But it's worth a try....
I don't have the fund of knowledge to start tuning my own external crossovers. But thanks for the complement and the idea.
Don't get me wrong guys. My room is awesome. But I have a few issues that, once under control, will really make that last little bit shine. Isn't that what we are all after, the last 1/10 of 1%? |
If the room is over pressurized, how does adding more pressure solve the problem? I'd look at taking the room out of the equation, as well as the crossovers. I have not ever heard box speakers sound good in a small room. Matt, try external crossovers - that will really open up your world of choices for time & phase coherent accuracy as you'd be doing it yourself. You need to take control, brother. This will consume you. |
I have also been advised by a room design guy to consider this:
http://www.bagend.com/products-category/active-bass-trap/
It's a Bagend active Base Trap.
"it looks like a small subwoofer without input termi- nals. Fore and aft are two small micro- phones; either one can supply the input to, effectively, two single-band paramet- ric filters (range 20–65Hz) that add tar- geted resonance peaks to the feedback circuitry that powers the driver. As a result, the input signal at those peaks is amplified and output via the 10” driver but, cleverly, opposite in phase to that of the input. Place the E-Trap in a high- pressure zone, such as the junction of two or three room boundaries, and its output will oppose and cancel the nodal energy in the room" |
I was speaking with the guy at Von Schweikert who sets up their rooms at most of the shows about my concerns/issues. He said that he hears it all the time and it has to do with unbalanced pressurization of the room when it's a smaller room. The large rooms at shows don't have this issue.
I have not tried it yet, but he suggested I add a sub to the room connected in series from the amps to speakers (high output terminals). He specifically said not to pull the signal low level from the pre-amp. He said to put the sub behind the listening position in the back of the room to balance the pressure in the room, adjusting the output so its not even audible but enough to offset the main speakers output pressurization.
I'm away for a few days but when I get back, I'm definitely going to try it.
Thoughts? |
Very fast woofers
Jan Plummer knows his stuff.
http://tbisound.com/dsp_products_subwoofers.asp
http://tbisound.com/dsp_sound.asp
Now with TBI™ Bass Extension Modules you can match the speed of your mains precisely, with the room having a positive - supportive effect on the results. The driver is acoustically shielded from reflections allowing the room to support the bass in a positive way. Low frequency room treatments are typically unnecessary for a properly set-up TBI bass extension system.
The very low mass driver requires little diaphragm travel to produce long wavelength signals in this patent pending design. This combination of attributes provides a platform for fast launching of the low frequency waves. The hybrid alignment combines the best attributes of reflex and transmission line models and is the result of extensive research and development. The resulting products are setting a new precedent in objective bass quality and uniformity for high quality audio systems.
You will find a product compatibility chart at the bottom of each product page that will give you some guidance in choosing the right bass extension setup for your high quality audio system.
TBI and Vinyl |
No. If I were to do subs, I'd do the matching Vandy subs as they are set up to work properly with the Treo's. I hate to say it, but I've never heard a sub integrate properly. I know so many swear by their usage and I'm sure that there are plenty of you who have them set up perfectly. I've just yet to hear it. I also feel that the majority of dealers really don't know HOW to set up a room. I know that even the top dealers will often have problems setting up their rooms because folks come in all the time and touch stuff and actually move things. I've seen customers in a very high end boutique start to tip speakers to see their spikes or something. They don't realize that will throw off everything. Winson, please share more about the subs. |
Cstooner, did you ever try TBI subs? |
What are your thoughts on speakers who integrate powered subs below 100hz so you can dial in the bass after you set the speakers up to sound their best for the mids on up? Personally, I've never heard separate subs integrate fully with monitors and I have always LOVED monitors. I personally have liked some of the speakers that integrate them and voice the amps to take on the sound of the main amps someone is using in their system. |
Interest information!
Why Multiple Subs?
I want to start my posts with a lengthy discussion on the use of multiple subs, first why they should be
used, and then how they are setup.
First I think it a good idea to go over some history behind the concepts. I will start by going all the way
back to my PhD thesis (30 years ago), which was on this precise topic. At that time I was studying the LF
(low frequency) sampling statistics in small rooms and how these were affected by the rooms shape.
This is important question in sound measurement because it tells us how many points (samples) we
need in a reverberant room to find the true source sound power given that each point has variations of
the desired quantity due to the non‐diffuse nature of the sound field at LFs in small rooms.
http://gedlee.azurewebsites.net/Papers/multiple%20subs.pdf |
