@ksattic That’s the way to do it - listen. I was just pointing out that FPGA DACs are not a Chord exclusive - several other manufacturers use FPGAs for the heavy lifting in their DACs (such as by EMM Labs in my digital gear and also MSB and dcs afaik).
Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD
Hi All.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
Putting together a reference level system.
My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's.
For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling?
USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
4,489 responses Add your response
The GG is a tube stage DAC. The Merlot is SS The Playback Design Merlot is a Chipless 1 BIT DSD dac. Andreas Koch uses a different method to in sampling rate before its passed over to the analog stages of the DAC. You might want to read into his paper work. This DAC balances very well for its price tag against the BIG boys price tags DACs. Many companies use FPGA and the same applies to playback design. Its the algorithm written for FPGA that matters more in the end. You can constantly update the Dacs Sounds by software instead of hardware. |
There is a review of the DAVE by JA in the June Stereophile. It's also on the cover. Very positive and he does some interesting comparisons to other DACs using different technologies with shorter filter circuitry. Give it a read and check out the measurements. He also talks about shortcomings like no MQA decoding. I like his reviews. One of the things he says which I totally agree with is that the end result of the DAVE changes quite a bit depending on the other components in the chain. Having owned one I can see where folks would come to different conclusions just based on the differing components. It is a great DAC for the price, not much doubt about that in my mind. But I would never say it's the best. Even Rob Watts has said he has improved substantially on redbook when the DAVE is used with the new Chord CD transport and upscaler, Blu 2. Waiting on mine to get here! There are a lot of good (if not out of this world) DACs in the 8-15K range. DAVE is one of them I would say. |
One small point that makes me know taste matters. Rob does not think DSD can sound good, much less spectacular. I can assure everyone that the "Chipless" DSD engine in my GG DAC (99% of the time) can make a believer out of the biggest anti-DSD campaigners out there. (There is always that 1% that will deny reality. LoL) I love great music in whatever format and rule out none a priori. |
They are the only ones doing it THEIR way and it is very good, but not everyone's favourite. It is MUCH better than the much hyped Hugo which to me was not great at all. DAVE is a much more elaborate implementation of the same Tech than Hugo was...but there are many ways to skin a cat and many roads lead to Rome. The trick is to find which part of ROME you want to hang out in! LoL |
Of course you did. Many of us have the QX5/20 and bought it over all the Chord DAC's. Many have the Dave and love it. Different ears for all of us and different fits depending on the systems too. Matt, everyone is excited for you to get the DaVinci into the system. It will be interesting now as you review TotalDac and some others as they come along. How close will they come to a 35k DAC is what I'm interested in. I think that's the real question. How close are we with 10 or 15 or 20k DAC's. For many there is a point of no return, but for most, there is a line that can't be crossed. I found that line to be 9K for the Ayre QX5/20, but I really liked the sound of the Brinkmann also for 14k I think it is. It was very organic as I posted many many pages back. I need to go listen again as they have a QX5/20 there too so I can listen in the same system in a room I know the sound of. Should be fun. |
@wisnon I'm fairly new to Audiogon - didn't realise this thread went back to 2014! Will read back. As you say, Chord implement the pulse DAC and filtering in FPGA. Many other manufacturers have FPGAs but I've only even seen them used for filtering (like the Ayre). I did have the chance to A/B the Ayre QX-5 Twenty vs the Chord 2Qute and I preferred the latter. |
Too bad there is no way to search for a particular dac in this thread in a quick and easy way. I find this thread very valuable and thanks to OP and everyone who contributed. I am using Ayre Codex right now and will upgrade later down the road. I will definitely use the information in this thread to help me pick out my next dac. |
Ksattic, you have to read everything. Not only was the Dave mention, the OP had one and it broke. He said so a few posts above. Almost all the mid to top Dacs have FPGAs, though they use them differently. Chords proprietary tech is NOT the FPGA, but their firmware, ie the WTA filter and the Pulse array Dac, all executed on the blank canvas FPGA. Though I like the Dave, its not the absolute sound winner you make it out to be. Many people prefer other Dacs, including the YGGY which costs a lot less. I myself prefer a tube Dac and own a Lampi (no Dac chips at all, R2R ladder and chipless DSD), though I also own a Qute EX too. |
I'm surprised no one has mentioned Chord yet. The Chord DAVE is the most advanced DAC in the world. It uses an FPGA (field programmable gate array) to implement a proprietary DAC which achieves a noise floor and reproduction accuracy better than anything else on the market. http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/product/dave/ |
Matt, want to buy my rebuilt Rhea with the Basis TT/Benz Glider all on a Ginkgo specially made platform that Vinny made for me? LOL...Ha, had to, sorry. Your headphones with the iPhone is great sounding. Stream your Tidal and get an Audioquest Red DAC with the Apple camera connector that you can also charge at the same time. Honestly, it sounds great for what it is. That's my to go rig when I go away. |
Jh901- the short answer is, yes. The better recording make a huge difference! Even if still "just" at 16/44. Thanks, Matt. Sorry to hear about DAVE! Just to be more clear, I was referring to mastering quality. A great recording can be ruined if the engineer doesn't transfer to digital very well. Anyhow, hope you are able to focus on music once again soon. - Josh |
By the way - as insane as it is to think, I am currently DAC'less. My new Davinci LH2 is due in about 2 weeks. My ODSX is back at Steve's getting the USB input put back in and swapping out the Dueland caps for V-Caps. And my Chord DAVE broke and i sent it back for replacement. Which REALLY sucks because I JUST got the Antipodes DX Gen2 in yesterday. Sigh. |
Jh901- the short answer is, yes. The better recording make a huge difference! Even if still "just" at 16/44. I have, admittedly, become so consumed with finding my grail equipment that I sometimes spend more time comparing gear then I do just listening and enjoying music. My time is SO limited. But there is a satisfaction and enjoyment in comparing gear that is its own hobby in and of itself. :) |
Yep, the posting from Talk2me is somewhat confusing. The mods may help in lower gear, but with top of the line equipment it makes mo sense. P.S. I`ve had a couple modified players and I restored all to initial original state. I will not mention the company names here so they can keep they`r business that`s probably effective on lower gear. One example was my all time favorite Marantz SA-1 that was charged with all super-clocks and other so called "top of the line" mods. After restoring it to initial state with all original parts it was "night and day" better. |
WTF you are talking? If the GNSC is such a genius, why not design his own? I have never, ever heard that anyone, ever modified Burmester. The strong point of Burmester is, and has always been it`s superior, precision voicing and holographic 3D soundstage, that you will miss, if you take it out it from your system. P.S. There`s a bit more than "I have a better caps" to replace........ |
I'm hesitant to start a second thread since this one has SO much recognition. I think I'd prefer to just chat about music servers here as we meander about. Ive thought about starting a Facebook page. But that would split attention and could get complicated. I'm leaning towards just letting this thread morph and flow as we go. |
Excellent point about servers CTSooner.... How about your or Matt start a much needed absolute top tier Music Servers thread. I for one do not know enough about servers.... But eventually would like to migrate from my beloved Esoteric X-01 used as a transport for all my CDs to a server with integrated solid-state storage. Rather than broadening this fine watering hole to include servers sub-topics, it would be nice to have a sister thread concentrating on SOTA servers. Saluti, Guido
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Looks like we are morphing into phase two, while always keeping phase one alive. Servers! That little bug a boo. Why have servers gone untreated if you would? So many DAC makers are NOT in the server business. I am just waiting on the companies to make servers that connect to their DACS AND are synched to each other as that's where digital fails. This is why we all are looking at other devices like SOTM, that is used in many DACS and or servers not named SOTM. Why can't the clocks be synched? Is there no universal deal for them all? Timing is digital's major shortcoming. Be it jitter or whatever, it's the timing that is what makes analog better to this day. I will watch this thread keep evolving as Matt goes through his audiophile struggles to get the best sound he can afford in his room. |
The Mini is a lot cheaper!!! Dragon...I do use a SS Integrated amp. It's a NAD 375BEE modded with negative output impedence by www.rowen.ch. This is to compensate for speaker line losses and to ensure stability at peak power demand times. My speakers are Heil AMT. Currently I have the Kitara running with the Syrinx. All Heils run perfectly in Phase, so they can run together. As the amp can handle bursts of up to 750wpc into 1 ohm, its a piece of cake to run these speakers in parallel. Matt suggeted that these speakers may have a special synergy with Lampi Dacs and he may be right, though I think its more with the amp, to be honest. The amp also grips the woofers well and keeps themas tight as possible. Speakers can be seen at www.precide.ch |
I guess is personal taste i found the Lampi GG too coloured for my taste but this noise issue was one of annoyance I encountered. I can see why many people love it, It is an excellent DAC and value. Being the nature of the GG Dac warm sound it can easily mate with SS Gear but will require careful matching with other Tube Gears. Probably due to too much warmth being added into the system and the sound signature becoming unbalanced. The GG dac does bring out the emotions of the music which is a big factor in my books. As too many high priced DAC these days sound Soulless, their is no life in their nothing that would stir the listeners emotions. I like the sound slightly warm lets say 1 or 2 notches above Neutral but not into Super Syrupy warm sound. I can reach this state easily by tuning the pre-amp and power amp tubes. So SS DACs have no issues on my system. OTL amps are known for their transparency and smoothness. I consider my current system a reference, It consist of PAD Cables all Neptune Liquid Series. Atma Sphere Nirvana Amplifier and Atma Sphere MP-1 Pre-amp with all the upgrades. This combination together with the Classic Audio Loudspeaker T1.5 Field Coils. The sound is so transparent it shows you the character of all the upstream electronics. Even minor changes to the system will shift its energy. Regards to Cable Lifting, I have also experienced this to work wanders on some cables only. However I found No difference in sound with Purist Audio Designs when lifted or left on the floor. This would possibly be due to their damping techniques. That Memory player looks interesting but the price tag does not :-) Whilst I don’t have issues in spending money in Audio. I am now starting to realise not all expensive audio is worth going for. The biggest area I would spend most of my budget on are Pre-amps, Power Amps and Speakers. DAC, Transports, Servers all come last with cables. |
Guys, I recently read a couple of question. I have used a lot of different cables and after a week I lifted all off the carpet. In EVERY case, bar none it made a huge difference in lowering the noise floor. It's about getting rid of the static charges etc... dielectric or not, it made a difference. Matt, call me on HRS. I'm sure Johnny would lend you a platform or two to play with. Personally, my best set up's I've ever heard are all with HRS and that's for gear I don't love too. The new Wilson's sounded best when Dan's amp was on HRS platforms, the Dynaudio's sounded best when the VAC's were on HRS and the list goes on. I just feel it's the best engineered gear out there and even their least expensive stuff sounded GREAT. NO I don't own their gear, but maybe someday I can afford it. The lower the noise floor the better for most systems. If you have tube gear, to me it's aMUST to use an HRS or something that's top notch as it will help with the noise floor problems associated with any tube gear. JMHO. |
Dragon_Vibe, I didnt say anything was WRONG with your wiring, I simply meant it may not work well as setup with the Lampi for some reason, or it could be the interaction with the other tube gear in terms of grounding. I guess the way the Lampi is designed it has its own peculiarities. It clearly work well in the VAST majority of cases, given that over a thousand of them are in the field and clealy work well at shows. A buddy of mine has 2 of them and he is owns an electrical installation company, and so he certifies his own house wiring and has ZERO noise, even with his HeadDac...ie Dac and HP amp in one. To be clear, I am fine if the GG didnt work for you and is not to your taste. Happy that you like the PBD...your enjoyment with your gear is all that matters, just it does for me, Matt, Cstooner and all the rest. I am only giving my opinion, just like you and have no skin in the game. I dont apologise for standing up for what I hear and like though...but it is just one data point in the grand scheme of things. For an all in one product, for $14K, Dartzeel makes the Danalog, ie LHC-208, which is an Ethernet streaming Dac and 200wpc classA/B Integrated amp. PCM to 384khz and DSD128. Now that is what I call a Digital Hub! |
For SunandMusic...here is (UK) Bonzo's take on the Aries Cerat. Note Bonzo is a Lampi GG owner and loves the sound. Comparison was done in Brussels. http://zero-distortion.org/aries-cerat-lampi-ar-5se-analysis-omega-rockports/ For Matt, mad respect for this thread. When it started, it could have been a train wreck, but your personality and steady hand has guided this deftly to be a MAJOR resource for people researching Dacs and things Digital/speakers. BTW, the congrats go to the Lampi team. Nothing to do with me. I just cut and paste. No secret I like the Lampi sound, as it agrees with my sonic taste. I dont like dry and for my demo with the Yggy, I found it dry. Not a big fan of most SS Dacs. LoL |
My house wiring is fine, My Wife designed the house and it was built 2 years back. We moved in 18 months ago. I have a Grounding Pole as thick as those used on lighting towers. This is Copper Rod pole runs down 30 Meters into ground and hits water. The house is well grounded. I think my house was tested for grounding resistance and passed with flying colours. I don't get noise from my Atma-Sphere Gears, nor do i get noise from my 2 other systems in the house. I run tubes everywhere except in my bedroom which is a SS system. |
Wisnon - congrats on the great reviews. As much as I hate to say it, I may need to get a GG into my room if not just to hear it and find where it belongs in the pecking order of DAC'dom. But I have no doubt it's exceptional. As I said, I've heard it in several show systems and they have all been great! HRS is sort of the best there is. I am upset at myself that I forgot about that. I just don't know how big a difference it makes for THAT much more money. And I don't think there is really any way to tell..... And i I use Shunyata elevators under all of my loom (PC's, interconnects or speaker cable). Nothing touches the floor, and I have vinyl everywhere with a large, double thick central area rug. |
Dragon Vibe, not discounting your personal opinion (I know that some house wiring can cause problems with some gear that work superbly in other places), you must certainly understand that others hold very different opinions. At the recent Axpona show, 3 rooms had Lampis and all were well received! Copied from ACircle.. Maurice Jefferies from Postive feedback: Our flagship Golden Gate DAC was featured in the VSA room, featuring there new flagship speakers. This drool-inducing set-up challenged one's expectations of what an ultra-high end system can do, and what such performance costs. At 900+ lbs. per side and over seven feet tall, the VSA ULTRA 11 speakers ($295K/pair in your choice of automotive paint finishes) towered above everyone and everything. They reproduced bass instruments with concert level impact below 20Hz (this was bass you heard and felt). Highs soared to infinity yet never shouted. Grain was utterly absent from the proceedings. Steve Rochlin from Enjoy the Music: In the same room with our Golden Gate Stever said "Getting my personal award for being Best Sound At AXPONA 2017 is the VAC / Von Schweikert room featuring their ULTRA 11 large floorstanders " Greg Weaver from Postive Feedback had alot to say about this same room as well. To summarize it he wrote > All these extraordinary attributes combine to present an unsurpassed degree of soundstaging; layering, image specificity, size, and shape. The overall spatial presentation, hall dimensionality, instrumental placement and interrelationships, the space between and around those remarkably defined voices, and reverberant cues, set a new benchmark of performance. Jana Dagdagan From Stereophile: I love tubes and horns. So naturally, when Jason and I were dividing up rooms, I leapt at the opportunity to cover Destination Audio, a company rumored to execute tubes and horns well, even in small hotel rooms. Our Flagship Golden Gate DAC was also the source in the Destination Sound soom. Along with the speakers, the system contained two Destination tube preamplifiers ($16,000/pair) and two Destination tube mono power amplifiers ($24,000/pair). We listened to the Kings Singers' "The Boxer," and I marveled at the depth of the soundstage and how, through such towering speakers, this beautiful male a cappella ensemble filled but did not overpower the limited-size room. Afterwards, we listened to "Ode to Billy Joe" by Patricia Barber, and the amount of detail and variation in each "snap" left me wanting more. As I'm listening, Greg Roberts of Volti Audio—another maker of horn speakers I deeply adore—happens to sit next to me. It's a beautiful thing when you see a show exhibitor take a break to sit down and enjoy another designer's offerings. As I dragged myself away in hopes of staying on schedule, I thought to myself, "what an exceptional way to start the final day of Axpona." ============================================ Besides awarding us for the best room at the show. Peter from AVS showrooms had this to say about the sound from our Golden Gate DAC through the epic VSA ULTRA 11s > Words cannot express what I felt when listening to Roger Waters “Amused to Death” on this system with the ULTRA 11 Von Schweikert loudspeakers. It is the best of show. It is the best of any room at any show I’ve ever attended and I have been in thousands of exhibit rooms over the years. The experience was otherworldly. The sound was big and detailed – organic; the room had a heartbeat except there was no room, everything disappeared, like having the best seat in the house at a venue with excellent acoustics. I’m usually not a big fan of large loudspeakers at shows because they are very hard to set-up properly in a less than adequate environment with little time to get things right, but this was an achievement of the first order. ============================================== Hell yeah! I 'experienced' Amused to Death in the room and it's gonna stay with me forever! Congrats to you guys for such a phenomenal setup! |
Matt, get in touch with me. Richfield found a new rack that he's going with. Said he couldn't' believe the sound difference. Personally, my favorite so far is the HRS rack with their platforms built in. I've heard their gear in many high end systems and they are just amazing. I love when you audition and they quickly take away the platform and you can hear a negative difference. Sound floor, decay times etc... I'm about to make a few sets of wood blocks out of cypress like Ayre and Cardas make. I will make a nice looking set for all my gear and matching holders for my speaker cables. I've noticed that by lifting the cables up off the carpet is important. It's a small, but audible difference. I implore all of you to try it. It's one of those inexpensive tweeks that is needed in any system that has a carpet. I don't know if the static builds up on a wood floor where it would make a difference. Any of you have a solid floor? If so, do you lift your cables off the floor and if so, any difference? |
Matt, Stillpoints are great and tactically flexible in a variety of settings. I use Ultra 5s as turntable and speaker footers and Ultra SSs under several components lodged in a custom steel rack. But if you ever get around to a strategic rethink of the Adona rack, also consider the Starsound Rhythm racks and platforms. Starsound racks and platforms made a major difference with my Esoteric digital front end and Pass monoblocks. You'd have to pry them loose from my dead hands. |
Dgarretson- you bring up a good point. 2 ways to compare: 1) keep everything absolutely consistent and change 1 and only 1 variable. 2) do what needs to be done with each item to allow each to shine as much as it can. I sort of do both but lean heavily more toward the first. I can’t compare fairly with anything that would change the sound (i.e. Different power cords, interconnects, power conditioning). But I have no problem tweaking vibration control and such (of course that changes the sound also, but it's just helping the untinsound its best). I use my top tier Adona racks and typically put Stillpoint Ultra 5’s under the DAC’s to isolate. I find they are crazy good (although crazy expensive). I think I will eventually go for an all Stillpoints rack. But for now my Adonna is excellent. Also, my room is sitting on concrete in a quiet suburb with very few homes on very many acres of land. So micro-vibration is well controlled and macro vibration rarely exists. CTSooner and Wardl - I have officially ended you guys. Enough. Give each other an audiophile man hug, agree to disagree and keep the conversation to the topic please. Thank you. Your Welcome. :) |
Ctsooner, you have made "enimies" talking about audio gear? Wow. Not sure how that is possible but, ok, maybe some take this a little too far. Point is, not sure I would trust your opinion on this or the opinion of the competitor designer whoever he or she is (that is a polite way of saying, I don't). And not sure anyone else should either. Like you say, listen for yourself. And I certainly do not need your validation. Hopefully we are not enemies now. I don't think I have any at the moment, lol. |
