A little help please.

gallo reference models; the reference 3 is the current model. It has a wrap around design tweeter that, I think, covers 330 degrees. Damn good speaker according to a friend that bought a pair about a year back; he loves them.

check out Martin Logan speakers. Many models to fit your buget. very wide sound stage, big sweet spot. One of the best subwoofers to complement any speaker. I have a pair of Ascenti and two Descent subs. The sound is the best I ever owened.

Russ

Well I'm going to ramble a bit here, so be warned...

Speakers that have a great deal of variation in the shape of their radiation pattern (due to beaming) are less likely to give you decent soundstaging and decent tonal balance from well off axis.

Let's look at how the ears work a bit, just as background.

The ears localize sound sources primarily by both intensity and arrival time. Intensity is the primary mechanism above 1.5 kHz, and arrival time is the primary mechanism below 1.5 kHz, but both play a role in both frequency ranges.

Note that strong, distinct early reflections are especially detrimental to imaging. It's a good idea to either diffuse or (if necessary) absorb first reflection energy.

Now to get good soundstaging well off-axis is tricky. You nearer speaker's output naturally arrives first, and its output is also usually not only louder, but is in particular louder in the treble region. These factors combine to pull the image way over to the closer speaker even if you're just a little bit off-axis.

One way to minimize this effect is to use line-source-approximating loudspeakers, because sound pressure level falls off more slowly with distance from a line source. So for the off-axis listener, there is less loudness differential between the two speakers, giving a better soundstage.

Another way to get a good off-axis soundstaging is to toe the speakers in severely, so that their axes criss-cross actually in front of the listening position. This technique works well with speakers that have a slightly rising response on-axis. Now what happens is, the person off to one side hears the nearer speaker first, but because he's more on-axis of the farther speaker its output is actually louder (especially in the treble region). An added benefit of this approach is that, if the speakers radiation pattern is well controlled (by a horn or waveguide for instance), the first sidewall reflection may well be eliminated by simple geometry. The net effect is a more realistic soundstage from well off-axis. For best results, the speaker should have its flattest response not on-axis, but rather something like 15-25 degrees off axis, as this is where the listener will be sitting when the speakers are toed way in, so this is his first-arrival sound.

Yet another technique that works reasonably well is to use a speaker whose radiation pattern is approximately omnidirectional. This will at least give the off-axis listener a better presentation than beamy speakers pointed straight ahead or only toed in a little.

Speakers designs that produce a well-controlled, uniform radiation pattern tend to be the best for off-axis listening, provided those patterns are aimed properly (if the speaker is fairly directional).

Let's also look at tonal balance for a moment. Even if you can't get great soundstaging from well off-axis, the tone of the voices and instruments should still sound natural. This calls for a fairly wide, very uniform radiation pattern over as much of the spectrum as possible (the treble region is most critical here, and very few speakers have a uniform radiation pattern through the treble region).

I think it can be argued that there are really two "sweet spots" - the imaging/soundstaging sweet spot which will be best up and down the centerline but can extend off to the side fairly far with suitable loudspeakers and set-up; and the "tonal balance" sweet spot which can literally be throughout the room if the speaker has a suitably uniform radiation pattern.

The Gallos mentioned above have a wide imaging sweet spot and a wide tonal balance sweet spot due to their wide radiation pattern. The Martin Logans have a fairly wide imaging sweet spot due to their line-source, fairly uniform radiaton over a 30-degree arc, but their tonal sweet spot really doesn't fill the room as well because their radiation pattern is very different (approximately omnidirectional) in the lower octaves where they use a conventional woofer.

Personally, I place a high priority on a wide sweet spot, and perhaps oddly I place a lower priority on superb imaging right in the middle of that sweet spot. OFten there's a trade-off relationship between superb imaging in a small area versus decent soundstaging over a larger area. I have some familiarity with electrostats - the flat-panel InnerSounds have the best imaging but the smallest sweet spot; the 30-degree-arc Martin Logans not quite as good but the sweet spot is larger; and the 90-degree-arc Sound Labs (which I sell) don't image quite as precisely as the Martins but have a very wide sweet spot.

In more conventional speakers, you might want to look at designs that use horns or waveguides of some type (concentrics often work pretty well, as the woofer cone approximates a waveguide for the concentric tweeter), and at designs that approximate omnidirectional radiation.

If I had to guess based on your description of struggling to find the sweet spot, I'd say that you may have a problem with early reflections off a wall or piece of furniture, or diffraction off of a nearby edge (perhaps a bookcase or some other vertical feature). I think something is screwing up the early-arrival sound in your room and that's why you're having a hard time finding the sweet spot. Much as I think "new speaker fever" is a fun thing to have, try draping a towel or blanket over possible problem areas before you empty out your wallet.

Best of luck to you!

Duke

you sound like me when i am trying to get the last bit out of the speakers. what is the size of the room as this is very importand to allow the sound to develop vs having to much speaker and bass response bouncing back into the room, and causing all kinds of problems. there are many out there and i have owned many. the lastpair i bought i had my heart set on a $20,000 pair and keep them along time. thats when i found this site and my local dealer lost contact with me $$$$$$ was he reason. i have had 2 pairs of martin logans which no matter what you have to sit still and the soundstage is narrow and they need room behind them as well. so do you have this?? also the last 4 pairs in order B&W 802 series 3, B&W 805,pbn goldI's and b&w nautilus 803 and 802's. these idonot recomemend in the nautilus line as they have a tipped up top end which was to be eliminated with the new d series.. the speaker that i went with was tyler acoustic woodmeres. they are a d'appolito design with the a midrange tweeter and a midrage below the tweet . abov each midrange at the top of the speaker is a 10 in woofer and a port below it. at the bottom of the speaker is another 10 in and a port above it, you could call it the symetrical d'apollito design. i ordered them in the finish of over 80 choices with x/overs. thes are the best sounding speakers that i have ever owned. the key is to get the set up right especially the distance you sit from them. one thing about a d'appolito design is that the off axis freq. response fall off fast as to let you move forward into he room to help emliminate the first reflextion point and then you angle them at you for center stage. the d'appolito design will give you a large sound stage and a very neutral sound. the drivers are all SEAS DRIVERS depending what you get as well as the SEAS MILLENIUM TWEETER which some feel is one of the best out there. i reread where you dont have a large room so i would look int one of there monitors with stands made for them. i have also a pair of their tyler acoustic linbrook signature monitor with stands. these re55 lbs each and if you go on the website wich is
www.tyleracoutics.com you can see all the brands and the ones ty get back from people that trade them in on his upgradeprogram. when you concider they are factory direct and at the last ces 2005 show robert greene gave the company and ty's speakers best of show in different catogories. when do you see a comapny like the absolute sound give a factory direct speaker comapny praises when theydont advertise in the absolute sound. the tyler acoustics are my favorite speakers of all time. call and ask for ty and tell him BILL L told you to call him. he will give you all the time and info what he thinks will work in your room. IMO the quality of everything from cabinets to drivers and assembly are top notch . the only thing is you are not paying a steteo stores price markup after it goes thru the middle man. what i payed for my woodmers with xotic finsih and outboard xovers it was $11500 deliverd. these would be in a store for $30,0000 msrp. he will have a model in any price point you want but dont pass on the used ones some have only less than 6 months that the people took advantate of the trade up program. its a winner winnner all around with top notch sound that i would put them asthe best sound out there and not to mention their price per performance vs,the competition????? i went with the woodmeres cause i have a big room and then ordered another pair of the linbrook signature monitores with their stands in the same finsh with the wood veneer left from doing the woodmeres for a possible rear speakers that right know are in my a/v system. I really cannot see why people would pay more for a speaker when ty's are that good. i finally took the plunge away from the dealers and i am glad i did especially what i got. i will give you a hint on set up you can have your speakers 1.2x's wider than the distant you sit because of recording techniques use since the 60's in stereo. this is the way i have mine positioned. its under millenium system and catagory done for now. i sit only 8 ft away and they are 116 in.apart from the centers of the speakers.

good luck

BILL L

Anybody who states clearly that a sweet spot matters is not gonna like a Martin Logan, yea they have a sweet spot but I dont know if he is ready for a speaker that is gonna sound very diffrent when he isnt in the feild of sound, I would assume a good easy Cone and Dome is what he wants.
How small is your room, Gallo might be a really cool choice but the Green Mountain Callisto will make your jaw drop if you wnt a small speaker.
Budget might help in choices also.
HEY DUKE...GREAT POST!

Thank you all for your input. I see that set up and size of my listening space are really important and will move things around until that sweet spot is where it should be. Thanks again, Mike

Another vote for the Gallo Ref 3. Excellent imaging with a large sweet spot. Also, I found that Quad ESL-63's have a large sweet spot.

Jeff

FWIW---> ONE (of the many) fine attributes of my recently purchased Intuitive Design Summits is a wiiiiddde sweet spot, with at least some preservation of central imaging even when seated outside of both speakers (yes, really). These are a two way dynamic design with 7" and 1" drivers and a transmission line, so don't know about how large of a room they could "fill", but do an astonishingly wonderful job thereof in our main living room, which is reasonably large, and is open to the kitchen, etc. The ceilings are not particularly high, though.
We also have a Rel Storm 3 sub-bass unit, although these Summits do pretty well on their own. Dale Pitcher told me that their rolloff is around 40 hertz, and from what I can hear, that sounds about right; accordingly, the switchable crossover frequency on the Rel sub-bass unit is set fairly low.