A Copernican View of the Turntable System
Dear thuchan - thx for the insight. A good company revenue strategy is very important to stakeholders. I always tell my children to shoot for the moon. So I tried to take swallow my own advice and asked for something out of this world. OK - I will settle for the personal helicopter, if the blonde has her pilots license :^) Does being the Captain of the Hinderburg feel at all like breaking an expensive stylus based on my own stupidity. cheers |
Dear Ct0517, you know high end audio business is facing hard times, especially when it comes to convincing new customers entering new pleasures zones. Aleks knows that we all enjoy well equipped systems. Therefore he wants to provide us with some extra services sending us on a trip to moon, mars or whatever is beyond our current experience level. I read his website that the entry gate for "his pleasure dome" will be the turntable, next is your personal helicopter, you will travel to mars, jupiter and end up in the Hindenburg - or why is he offering all "his products" - oh year the fringe benefits! He does himself understand as being part of the game. Therefore he shows a picture of himself being very active in the risky snow hills on Jupiter. So you see it is more than the cute blonde's potential services and if you are looking for new adventures getting out of your turntable corner you will be able to live a life even more exciting than 007 does. Thanks for my promotion as marketing manager but my real job is being captain of the Hindenburg - see you soon... best @ fun only |
Halcro and DT, That part of the design (ratio of size of support pedestal to its upper functional part), reminded me very much of the Simon Yorke turntables. However, the maker of the Onedorf is telling us that his bearing is perfectly true. Therefore the platter does not wobble one iota in the course of its rotation. Therefore its rotation would have the effect to stabilize the structure, like a gyroscope. Pretty cool, eh? |
Dear Thuchan LOL - I didn’t know that Aleks the designer had already hired you in charge of marketing. Great choice - as you just increased its value in my “eyes” . But I would have thought you were too busy for this type of work. Many fringe benefits come with the purchase of items at this level of “play” ? But how are you going to guarantee to me that the TT will still sound good after she leaves ? Will she leave the good belts with instructions ? Also I need to ask - As head of the marketing group is there any way you can get me a ride in the Phoenix Mars Lander that was just sold; I mean - before the new owner picks it up? How much push do you have ? :^) Pending Sale of Phoenix Mars Lander – halfway down page |
It can happens if the bearing shaft is surrounded by a hollowed inner tube that is fixed to the platter like my Symphonic Line RG6. In my case the oversized & massive bearing housing is hidden inside the 24 kgr platter instead of the chassis (supporting tube here) and the shaft penetrates the chassis until the level of the base platform where it plays the role of the central supporting cone. But in the case of the "OneDorf" we can't speak about ordinary bearing shafts I suppose ? |
Dear Ct517 - if you order quickly the blonde being the manager of the service team will be visiting you very soon. It is said she is responsible for personal delivery and installation. You may send your wife on a leave cause the unpacking takes quite some time and does need a undisturbed environment. She usually has a spare belt with her which is a bit stronger - just in case the three belts don't make it.... Best & Fun Only |
Dertonarm: McCartney: Wanderlust from sing363.com: By Paul McCartney LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST, HEAD US OUT TO SEA. CAPTAIN SAYS THERE'LL BE A BUST, THIS ONE'S NOT FOR ME. TAKE US FROM THE DARK, OUT WHERE WE CAN SEE. CAPTAIN'S OUT TO MAKE HIS MARK, THIS ONE'S NOT TO BE. LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST, HELP US TO BE FREE. LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST, DO IT JUST FOR ME, WANDERLUST. OH, WHERE DID I GO WRONG, MY LOVE? WHAT PETTY CRIME WAS I FOUND GUILTY OF? WHAT BETTER TIME TO FIND A BRAND NEW DAY? OH, WANDERLUST AWAY. LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST, HELP US TO BE FREE. LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST, DO IT JUST FOR ME, WANDERLUST. CAPTAIN'S OUT TO MAKE HIS MARK, THIS ONE'S NOT TO BE. LIGHT OUT WANDERLUST (Oh, where did I go wrong, my love?) HEAD US OUT TO SEA (What petty crime was I found guilty of?) CAPTAIN SAYS THERE'LL BE A BUST (What better time to find a brand new day?) THIS ONE'S NOT FOR ME (Oh, Wanderlust away) DROPPING A LINE, MAYBE THIS TIME IT'S WANDERLUST FOR ME. |
I agree, Halcro, that the proof's in the pudding. But what does Thucan's and other's rejection or, at any rate, lukewarm reception of this tt prove? We lack an explanation. It might be, gasp!, the sound of the separate tonearm pod that explains their displeasure. It might be that the bearing design isn't what it's cracked up to be. It might be...etc., etc.. Yay or nay judgments, even if true, take us only so far. That's why, loathe as I am to engaging in technical discussions, it interests me in this case because it might alter deliberations I actually have. For instance, knowing more about that 'q' value could influence future pod material and dimension choices. Ecir38: cool pics, thanks. Do you know/did you note how the height of the arm tower is adjusted? |
I spent some time in the room last year at RMAF. There is nothing I can say bad about this table but recall being stunned about the pricetag when hearing it. I was more impressed than not at the craftmanship and sound. As most know it is hard to truly evaluate one component at these shows, there is just too much going one. I found that rooms that included their own room treatment benifit the most on getting it right then it still cames down to everything in the chain as Thuchan stated. Halcro, I think the point he was trying to get across was mass is a criteria but the q of the material is more important with a hint on 6061. I mentioned this once in this thread already with TTweights pod using the combination of aluminum, lead and derlin. Here are a couple of pics I took at RMAF last year of the table. Included one other of a freinds implementation of 6061. http://s61.photobucket.com/albums/h69/ecir38/Arm%20Pod/Onedof/ Brad |
I stayed three full days at RMAF 2010 and I went into nearly all rooms. If you are eager to explore an item's capabilitis you sometimes can do it, sometimes not. It depends on the chain used and maybe your experience with the chain, if it is transferable. In the case of the Onedof he presented the TT with a small but well organized system as it was the case in some other rooms too, e.g. Soundsmith or with the slate based Lenco TTs in two other rooms. I would not say the sound in the Onedof room - basically his turntable was playing - did not play nicely, but I was not overwhelmed. I then did not know the price tag and also did not ask cause the nice looking TT did not throw me of the chair. Now i am curious what this year's appearance will bring. I am wondering that not so many people noticed the Onedof at RMAF 2010. Anyone did? BTW Raul described the efforts of turntable building in such a dramatic way that I might think he will show up with a table for 300.000...  Best & Fun Only       |
Thanks Banquo for all this information direct from the designer. I'm also puzzled about some things he says....like the armpod? The heavier the better he says and then mentions that steel is eight times heavier than aluminium and lo and behold.......he makes the armpod out of aluminium? I also think that we have to listen to Thuchan who is the only one here who has actually heard the table? Looking at the designer and his website and his philosophy is all well and good but in the end......the proof is in the pudding. And Thuchan has had the desert and is not impressed :^) |
I agree. I would rather hope to find out more about how the bearing is constructed by talking to someone in the know, first hand. The bearing seems to be the crux of the justification for astronomical cost. Otherwise, the tt looks like it could fit into the TT Weights line-up quite nicely, as a representative belt drive and at TT Weights pricing. |
Even if one hears the ONEDOF at RMAF, how will he/she be able to isolate the sound of the table from the rest of the system? Pardon the pun. And what will the rest of the equipment in the system actually be? I went to RMAF last year for the first time and spent most of the weekend listening to different tables, arms and cartridges. Some combinations sounded great, but I certainly did not gain any real understanding of what any individual component actually sounded like. |
Dear Raul, All that you say about the current state of high level R&D in audio is probably true. On the other hand, modern designers have available methods for machining parts both for beauty and for function that were never dreamed of when those Technics engineers went to work on the SP10, for one example. Further, we now have transistors, ICs, resistors, capacitors, etc, that far outperform the 1970s vintage of the same items. It's kind of a trade-off between the good old days and now. And in the end, the person who is buying this turntable needs to be convinced that somewhere in there are some unique and transcendent qualities that make it worth the price. That too is the job of the designer/inventor. I would also reiterate that I already stated I do not hold with those who condemn things purely on the basis that they cost "too much". But, sorry, right now I just don't see $150,000 here. I will keep an open mind until I have a better understanding of the unique qualities of this piece, if it has any. If I decide to go to RMAF, I will look for it there. That bit about the tonearm mount and the turntable/bearing resonating at different frequencies is possibly more true for separates than it is for turntables with integrated tonearm mounts, IMO. (But I don't want to flog that horse here any longer.) |
The interesting parts for me and this thread are his remarks about the self-standing tonearm towers. At least with his design, he seems unconcerned about the arguments against them. Furthermore, when he writes, "In any case tonearm and platter would never be resonating coherently because they are so different in shape and acoustic response" I take that to imply that rigid coupling of tt and tonearm via a plinth does not offer the advantages that some on this thread claim for it--or at least that what Aleks believes. I wish someone would comment on the other technical assertions he made in his emails and on his website. They strike me as substantive enough to merit a conversation (as opposed to useless sarcastic remarks). They are not ad copy, that's for sure. He made a claim about the bearing design being novel and some quickly dismissed it--what now? Of course, all this technical stuff is distinct from the quality of the sound, as he himself says in his email. Thucan: what are you talking about? If by 'messenger' you mean me, then I should say that I never heard of Onedof until I saw Halcro's link above. I certainly have no financial relationship with them. I should disclose however that if he were to offer me that turntable for free I wouldn't turn him down :). |
Dear Lewm/Thuchan: The 150K on this TT is no different from amplifiers on that price range and those amplifiers looks more deceptive than this Onedof. Could an audio item justify 150K+ price tag?, certainly it can. Could any one of us justify those 150K+ in an audio item?, again certainly yes. On one side there are a lot of hidden work on an honest audio item design during the research on that design and during its different kind of tests ( scientific or subjective. ), I'm speaking in general and not taking in count each step on that audio design, as a result all these kind of main work depend on the designer's skills and how " unique " and ambitious are his targets. Many times these main work takes not months but in some cases years of hard work because it is not only that the designer already has the design " finished " but the whoile project has several " stages " and each one represent research and tests, example: Aleks choosed aluminum 6061T6, do you think this was at random or just comparing through internet? , certainly not as Aleks posted he made analysis and I assume against other materials. This is only an example but like this design/build audio item stage there are a lot more that ask for the same quality of researcg and tests proccess. Now, it is not only that the design can fulfil designer targets ( mechanical, electrical or the like. ) but that the design can fulfil customer expectatives for the price tag. In the past corporation like Mathusita-Panasonic took 9-10 engineers and given to design/build the Technics SP-10 or the EPC-100CMK4 and this corporation not only gives the task but gives them all and any kind of resources to acomplish the product. Please ask Aleks or almost any today audio item designer where are all those human, tools and $$$$ to fulfil his design: there is almost no one resource other than the designer positive " emotion " and stand alone skills. In many ways the today audio items designers works as artesans more than as a corporate " figure ". Yes, some way or the other money has to fluence to these kind of manufacturers. Hopw can we think that this or that high price tag audio item is worth that price?, only when we hear/heard in our system against other similar audio products or in any other controled environment audio system. Till this moment I give Aleks the dude benefit. We all are not rookies and I don't think Aleks target through that Onedof was to deceit us, I think is very difficult to deceit people with audio/music deep experiences like all of you: so the Onedof could have " something " to say on playback. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Lewm, yes, no chrome - but look at that shiny golden finish. Given the sky-rocketing gold price of recent months, that should give enough cosmetic proof of quality in the mere audiophile sense we're accustomed to these days. BTW - what song/singer is that in the video? Me being music-wise rooted in the 1950s and 60s with very little of modern origin, I would honestly like to know. I kind of like the tune. |
Thanks, Banquo, for going to the source. I won't understand the design unless or until I see a good engineering drawing of his bearing, nevertheless. I got nothing from his description, but he is to be credited for trying. In a sense, I agree with Raul, I hate to see us audophiles condemning a piece of gear for its price, per se. But I also agree with the others who look at this turntable and cannot see where is the $150,000-value. This is the designers fault for not using enough chrome and lucite doo-dads and for not including an elaborate stand to hold the whole thing up. These latter items tend to make us "believe". Look at that Clearaudio Statement, for example. Now THAT's good marketing. (The product makes me ill, however.) The YouTube video is ridiculous. There are dozens of turntable/shelf combinations that can pass that test for well under $10,000. But it does not prove the tt is not "worth" $150K, either. |
Dear Nandric, today in audio the big buck is no longer made by trickling down. Unless you have very large production facilities, huge output and the subsequent large quantity discounts with materials procurement, you have little chance to really make good profit that way. At least not in high-end analog audio any longer. Too small total numbers. As a good portion of our passion deals with proud ownership and image, high priced gear sells better today than most modest price components. Especially as this type of consumption is nothing one exhibit in public. Setting up serial production for a US$2000 turntable is just as hard and time consuming as doing the same for a US$12000 turntable. And it is the planning and setting-up of production which is really the challenge. |
Dear In_shore, my comment was indeed meant rather sarcastic. In the sense that many hear the call, but very few are in fact appointed ( this phrase is much more phonetic balanced in german .... ). While audio physics no doubt are much less critical and demanding than aerospace, the criteria are much less obvious and defined. Deserves every product respect per se? Just because it is there and just because it bears a serious price tag? Let a new product - with so far only one sample made - proof it's claimed performance. Why giving away laurels ahead. But then I may be too critical and have a habit to regard something "new" always somewhat sceptically. |
This method is very old actually. One first produce the so called 'state of the art' with a pricetag nobody can afford and than the trickle down models which 'promisse', say, 90% of the technology implemented in the 'state..'. The money was supposed to come from those of course. Ie get the attention first with some crazy price.I was always impressed by Infinity . I mean the big one's for which I really needed Rockefellers. But Nudell got bankrupt 3 or 4 times ,if I remember well. And I am really sorry for his misfortune: I still like the guy and those big ones which I still can't afford. Regards, |
The designer's name is Aleks Bakman and I asked him a few questions via email. He declined to come to the forum but gave me permission to post his responses. First my questions, followed by his responses, followed by more questions followed by Aleks's final set of answers. ---------- "2 issues were raised. One pertains to this claim of yours: "A first in the history of the audio turntables self-centering One Degree of Freedom or Onedof™ bearing eliminates the source of acoustic distortions associated with microscopic movements of all existing cylindrical shafts." It was said (not by me), that "There are other TTs which provide same stableness and bearing technology. Look at the EMT 927 bearing - and this is proofed in professional business since 50 years. Look at the Continuum`s bearing and do experience it in real life. " I was wondering about your comment on this. Secondly, it is said on that thread that standalone arm towers suffer deficiencies due to 1. the tt and tonearm being subject to different resonances, which differences cause distortion at playback and 2. relative motion between tonearm and spindle due their not being rigidly coupled which motion causes geometry errors. I was wondering if and how you took these considerations into account in your design. regards, Minh" ------- "Thank you, dear Minh, wonderful questions! 1. All cylindrical bearings have inherent problem of whirl described here: http://www.onedof.com/sites/onedof.com/files/images/Slide1.JPG Onedof bearing eliminates this problem. Onedof bearing centers itself in all directions: up-down and in all horizontal directions. Onedof bearing restricts all translational movements of the platter: upward downward and to all sides. It only leaves one rotational movement of the platter. http://www.onedof.com/about-turntable EMT927 has cylindrical shaft and ball bearing at the bottom, providing stiff load path to the supporting stand and associated high frequency resonances. This design does not eliminate whirl. http://www.stefanopasini.it/EMT927F-main%20shaft.htm http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/showthread.php?t=80621 Continuum has replaced ball bearing at the bottom of the shaft with the hydrodynamic thrust pad, but the shaft itself remains cylindrical and therefore it is whirling, i.e. wobbles and shifts side-to-side at the same time. It also is not restricted at the top, only at the bottom. These are microscopic movements, which are damaging to the sound. Rotation shaft/platter assembly of the Onedof TT does not resonate at all, because the design of the bearing/suspension assumes non-linear stiffness, i.e. stiffness that constantly changes with any microscopic movement. Condition for the resonance, permanent stiffness of the suspension is eliminated by design of the Onedof bearing. Tonearm needs very massive support, to prevent high frequency resonances. If I added this weight (~15 lb) to the suspended mass of 50 lb, the symmetry of suspension loading would be impossible. In any case tonearm and platter would never be resonating coherently because they are so different in shape and acoustic response. Besides, suspension works only when the platter spins. I cannot add tonearm support to the rotating mass. The task of the designer is to prevent all vibrations as much as possible. If it is not possible, one has to damp suspicion. Onedof does both: does not resonate and damps external vibes coming from environment. However, this is all theory. I like the sound of Onedof, but I had never heard Continuum or EMT927. Ask more questions, Minh. If your co-bloggers need answers let them read my web site, using links, that I have given above. ... I am sorry, Minh, I made a mistake. Tonearm tower weights only 8 LB" ----------- "Dear Aleks, Thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions. Regarding the tonearm tower, several of us on that forum have taken to having our own towers fabricated by machinists we know. Two of our main concerns were weight and materials. Regarding weight, some of us were of the view that the heavier the better. Thus, many of our towers are 16-21lbs. The idea is that mass loading the tonearm would dissipate errant vibrations and also that increasing weight would prevent accidental movement of the entire tower (thus messing up tonearm geometry). Evidently, with your 8lb tower, you seem unconcerned with what troubled us. Are we just being neurotic? On another note, how do you ensure that external vibrations coming up from whatever platform the tower sits on doesn't make it into the tower and then into the tonearm? Is there a design feature that takes this into account. [You might have answered this already in your response below, but admittedly I couldn't follow all of it (I'm no scientist, that's for sure).] Secondly, regarding materials. We have made towers ranging from brass to stainless steel to various combinations. What is your tower made from? And what main considerations went into choosing the material(s). Do I have your permission to post our exchange on the forum site? I believe many others would find your answers useful. FYI: links to your site have already been posted. I should say, lastly, that I find your turntable extremely tasteful and beautiful. Congratulations and best wishes! Regards, Minh" --------- "Dear Minh, thank you for the compliment. Yes, what I wrote to you is in public domain. I do have a scientific background, but I am practicing engineering for 35 years. I am always trying to make myself clear to anybody. I avoid acronyms and abbreviations, I avoid professional vernacular. Still, if you do not feel comfortable with my language, ask again. I think, the heavier the tonearm support - the better, but after some point extra weight does not make any difference. What does make difference is the stiffness of the load path from the stand to the tonearm. That does not change with mass only, but also change with material stiffness. Aluminum is three times less stiff than steel and 2/3 as stiff as aluminum bronze. Combination of mass and stiffness of the load path creates acoustic response of the system, which is the set of characteristic frequencies at which the system generates resonances. One should be talking about particular frequencies and how to deal with resonant response, rather than in general terms. My tower is made out of aluminum 6061 T6. I did analyze its acoustic response using finite element model of the tower housing and optimized its design to avoid some modes of vibration ("mode" is a change of shape that structure takes, when it vibrates). Some modes of vibration propel distortion upward and therefore are more damaging. I will take your questions, Minh very seriously, and I will post answers on my web site with some illustrations. It will happen after the show in Denver. Thank you for your questions and for your compliments, Minh. By the way, tell the guys, NASA does not build any flight hardware, corporations do. NASA is a government agency, like US Post Service. NASA delivers staff from down here to over there." |
Dertonarm states, audio could very well benefit from the legion's of aerospace engineers whom maybe looking for new careers, this one example turned his focus to building a record player. I'm curious why. Has it Onedof truly have radically new thinking behind this product? Thuchan says no. My view it's over priced and that's an understatement, the web site is generally poor, has pictures of jets, helicopters and space vehicles , a list of career education and projects he analyzed and worked on and if he were alive at the time and worked on the Hindenburg design, that unfortunate disaster would never have had happened. Anyway I'm sure the Chinese would hire him, he could take his skis with him. As goofy as I found some things on Onedof site, I pictured in my mind Jethro and Granny of The Beverly Hill Billy's pitching his product. |
Dear Thuchan: Well, maybe not. Yes, I understand that the very high price makes a lot of noise in audio customers but: what if that high cost/price is worth of it?. I'm not saying that the Onedof is worth that price who knows but price is something relative and depends on many factors around. Banquo363, good move: I hope he can join us here, welcome! Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Raul, I do respect all technological inventions. Having a patent does not necessarily mean something, it depends on the topic the patent covers. we need to look into it more deeply. If you ever build a TT Raul don't forget to put the price tag over "100.000", this will raise attention. Look at the plastic buttons at the motor. Besides of the stable bearing what is so special, technically? one motor with three belts? the separate tonearm stand? - which looks very good, absolutely. I like the stand's design! but I would not pay 20.000 Dollar for a stand, would you? best & fun only |
Dear Thuchan: I don't think is a " trap of marketing " and I think you either. I'm not speaking about performance but I'm speaking about the designer contribution to improve the TT design. Remember that on the Onedof design exist registered trade marks/patents and I think that with out have in our hands a precise and clear proofs of that " trap of marketing " we could give him the benefit of dude, don't you think? Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
Dear Raul, in this case Dertonarm is absolutely right. You should not fall into the trap of marketing. There are other TTs which provide same stableness and bearing technology. Look at the EMT 927 bearing - and this is proofed in professional business since 50 years. Look at the Continuum`s bearing and do experience it in real life. As I said I have experienced the ONEDOF and I took my conclusions soundwise. Yes for 10.000 Dollar because of the nice design and the build quality - okay. But it is up to you going for 15 times the price because you think technologywise this is a major improvement. You only need to cross the border for a short flight to Denver, maybe at the next RMAF. Have fun! best & fun only |
Dear Raul, There may be some incosistency between your statement that 'every single...item design deserve our respect' and your agreement with me that (only) 3 belts on this TT make this TT to expensive. So we both are,I think, entitled to ask at least 4 belts for this price. However I am glad to see that the Mexican kind of humour is similar to the Balkan kind. Regards, |
Dear Dertonarm: IMHO you don'ty need to made that kind of comments on the Onedof and its designer. I don't remember to read any single similar comment on your protractor design or with you even that you have a very long " tail " for comments about. I think that every single audio item design deserve our respect even if we don't like it or we think is wrong. Btw, Nandric I agree: at least four belts. Regards and enjoy the music, Raul. |
