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The Emperor DAC has no Clothes

I currently use the Rega DAC in a system comprised of Merlin TSM-MXr speakers on Skylan stands. Amp is the Manley Stingray II tube amp. Oppo CD player and Mac Mini feeds the Rega DAC with Pure Music and Cardas cables. My friends system is currently using an ARC integrated with Vanderteen 5a's. He's had the W4S Dac II, EE Minimax Plus, ARC 8 DAC and is currently trying out another borrowed Rega because I won't loan him mine again!

In recent weeks we've tried these DACs in both systems, tweaked and tried various setups. I posted in another thread that the Rega won out against the Minimax Plus and the W4S 2 and that he was partial to the little Centrance.

So here's the thing. The Rega and the ARC sound pretty much the same. So does the W4S 2 and the Minimax. We STRUGGLE to hear the tiny differences between these units! And by "struggle" I mean we use top level recordings and LISTEN LIKE MANIACS again and again. 99% of the time we could not pick these units apart. 100% of the we find that we could be happy with ANY of them! Of course there was a preference for the Rega and the ARC, but boy was it slight! The smallest tweak could shift the balance. A different set of cables, speakers or higher ceiling could easily effect things.

Between the two of us we have something like 65 years of experience with audio. I find it absolutely hilarious when someone posts that a DAC sounds "much" better than another DAC. How is it that we can't hear the same thing, nor can ANY of our friends? We certainly hear a HUGE difference in speakers and amps and very audible ones with cables. But GOOD stand-alone DACs appear to be doing a very good job. MOST people simply list the one or two they've heard in stores as their favorites. If you're looking for a "safe bet" in a DAC you can go with ANY of the models I mentioned above or some of the other fine units out there. Unless someone has your exact system, in the same room and your precise tastes, try not to worry overmuch about DAC A blowing away DAC B.

This was most apparent in trying out the EE Minimax Plus. He tried various tubes and it always sounded best in SS mode! And in that mode it sounded quite like all of the others and about as good as the much less expensive Centrance. So the point of this is to put your efforts and money into speakers and amp/pre. That's 95% of the type of sound you'll get. They determine the character of the system more than anything else.

Cheers!

Rob
robbob
robbob OP
273 posts
 
Sibelius, sometimes tubes don't match tubes in other components. It's not very scientific, but they can sound tubby and muddy when synergy is poor. My friend sold his Minimax Plus to a fellow using a system using Revel speakers and SS power. He's pretty happy with the tube stage of the Minimax. It just didn't gel with my Manley tubes or the owner's ARC stuff.
I do think more and more people are getting turned on to the minimax plus sans tube stage. You just have to get beyond the "But I bought a tube DAC to use the tube!" angle and realize that it's SS stage was very well designed.

Rob
chayro
2,934 posts
 
Robbob - I'm glad you took my post in the spirit it was intended. When I was studying music in college, one of my professors, an accomplished pianist, was astounded that I couldn't hear the difference between the sound a white key and a black key from across the room. I later learned that, because of the difference in the mechanics of the keys, there is an audible difference in the way the hammer strikes the strings. Brass players can hear the difference in Bach and Selmer trumpets from across the street and experienced drummers can easily tell the difference between Zildjian and Paiste cymbals. I'm sure that, in your tests, for whatever reasons, the differences might have been minimal. It was just the sweeping nature of the pronouncement that all dacs sound the same or minimally different that caught my interest. I personally have no experience with DACs, but a lot of experience with CD players and I have heard very large differences - mostly in the way they capture the sound around the notes. I have a cheap Oppo and an EAR in my system. The Oppo gets the notes just fine - it's the air, the reverb, the tonality of the instrument that lacks when directly compared to the EAR. In any case, enjoy and have fun. That's what this is supposed to be about, I guess.
sibelius
256 posts
 
Rob - agree with you. I was fully expecting to prefer tube mode, but ss mode just adds more to my system. The added detail and resolution is welcome, especially without the listener fatigue I tend to equate with SS gear. Having tube preamplifier and amp probably helps in that regard. For whatever reason, the tube mode just does not blend in well with my system. As you mentioned, tube mode may work very well in revealing SS system where the goal is to add some warmth at the source. As usual, there are no absolutes and individual system synergy tells the tale.
audioengr
3,282 posts
 
"So Audioengr, other than the renowned MAC Mini, what are some examples of reasonably price yet quality digital sources with low jitter? Any laptops besides the Macbook Pro?"

With the advent of Async USB interfaces, this has nothing to do with the computer. It has to do with the USB interface. This is the digital source I'm talking about. This is what impacts the jitter.

If your computer uses a soundcard, then yes, the clock and interface is in the computer and this is where the jitter matters. But if we are talking about high-performance playback, this is not about internal soundcards. It's about high-performance external USB converters and USB DACs. This is where the low-jitter master clocks are located and this is what determines the jitter.

Mac Mini and Macbook Pro are certainly a good place to start to get something reliable going, and installation of Amarra or PM etc.. will definitely help with SQ, but this is second-order compared to the interface and clocks. The computer is not what determines the jitter level.

People seem to be fixated on the computer hardware and getting the best one for audio with all of the tweaks. It's not about the computer if one uses the optimum interface. I use a stock 2009 Mac Mini myself. Nothing special. I may put a SSD in it eventually.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
audioengr
3,282 posts
 
Loomis wrote:

"about four to five percent of the cost of good value high-end electronics is in the actual electronics that do the work"

That may be the case for the V-DAC, because that company has marketing and lots of employees to pay salaries. They probably have 3X margins so they can sell worldwide through distributors etc.. This is a typical model for consumer electronics.

Some high-end companies however have very few employees, dont advertise, and put a LOT of cost into the products, causing their margins to be small and their prices to be higher. Most of these are smaller companies that sell direct. There are actually much better components available, including connectors, internal cabling, multi-layer high-quality silver-plated circuit boards, low dielectric absorption capacitors, low ESR capacitors, low inductance resistors. Clocks (oscillators) that produce lower jitter are expensive, very expensive. When a designer uses these parts in the design, the result is much higher cost, but also lower electrical noise levels, better dynamic slam, more clarity, wider and deeper soundstage and less harshness in the audio output. More analog-like. The performance is definitely better than less expensive designs.

This is not about op-amps and IC's. What makes a really stellar component is the other "stuff", as well as the implementation.

BTW, Read the review of the V-DAC in TAS. You will learn a few things about jitter.

Steve N.
Empirical Audio
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