Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

Measurements will tell you nothing how a speaker will sound in your room, using your equipment, and what kind of music you listen too.

Countless formal listening tests looking at correlations between listening tests and specific set of measurements which I perform say you are wrong.

It’s been proven that some of the best sounding gear measures bad and vice versa.

This has been claimed but never shown to be true in any controlled test. Just because people keep repeating this argument doesn’t make it true. In my own experience, I either don’t hear the artifacts from poorly measuring gear or hear them as degrading fidelity. Not one time have I heard distortion and noise to be good.

I attend many audio shows and I get a feel on how the speaker will sound. If I feel these speakers will sound good in my room with my system, then I will work with the dealer or manufacturer for a 30 day trial.

I have listened to hundreds of systems at audio shows. The main thing you can learn there is how dynamic a speaker can play. Otherwise, tonality will be difficult to perceive. Home trials are pain in the neck because of size and heft of speakers to schlep or ship back and forth. Best to look at measurements and rule out the bad designs and then pick from the good ones.

 

 

 

@amir_asr These people believe the old urban legends. That is what much of this hobby was founded on.

Measurements are fine (I think they are an important first step), but an acoustically bad room will make the best equipment sound bad and visa versa. 

So, listening is as important as measurements. Hence, why I do both (heretical, I guess). I also know, if a piece of equipment sounds bad, no amount of 'break in - (🤣) will change that.

The other issue is everybody's ears measure different. There is no standard to them. This is also part of the equation that everyone ignores. That is why I ask people, 'Can they hear with my ears'. It is also based on personal experience, that also biases our hearing and other senses.

Cheers!

The Noble Rot 🤣

Common sense and basic acoustics knowledge is enough. 😊

I concur with botrytis...

No need to measurements ideology dogmas...Thanks Amir for your measures service its helping , but keep techno cultist ideology for yourself. 😊

God spare us double blind test with ABX ! Simple blind test will do good enough for any acoustics tuning ...

 

My system /room is created imperfect to serve perfectly my imperfect hearing....😁

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I think Amir is a nice guy...😊

But the dude who tried to convert me to his "church" was a nice guy too...

Someone generally who try to "sell" something must be nice anyway...

 

I get a kick out of ASR. This Amir person (I have no idea who he is) is a gifted linguist and deploys semantics rather artfully. I love statements like: "We follow establish(ed) audio science and engineering. And rely on what we can prove." Well, that’s a loaded statement that can best be defined as a "loaded statement fallacy", which begs the authority of what the writer considers "established" to the extent that any denial implies that the responder does not follow established audio science and thus cannot prove the validity of their response.

And all this emphasis put on a small set of measurements chosen by Amir among all possible measurements as what matter the most and only that with the accusation of delusion about any hearing act, contradict all we know about acoustics science and hearing theory...

Techno cultism ideology is not science. And perceived sound source qualias are not bits and quarks... They are acoustical meanings pointing to the vibrating sound source  qualities... The system/room is a vibrating whole.... Not a sum of very partially  and very uncompletely measured parts...