Some thoughts on ASR and the reviews


I’ve briefly taken a look at some online reviews for budget Tekton speakers from ASR and Youtube. Both are based on Klippel quasi-anechoic measurements to achieve "in-room" simulations.

As an amateur speaker designer, and lover of graphs and data I have some thoughts. I mostly hope this helps the entire A’gon community get a little more perspective into how a speaker builder would think about the data.

Of course, I’ve only skimmed the data I’ve seen, I’m no expert, and have no eyes or ears on actual Tekton speakers. Please take this as purely an academic exercise based on limited and incomplete knowledge.

1. Speaker pricing.

One ASR review spends an amazing amount of time and effort analyzing the ~$800 US Tekton M-Lore. That price compares very favorably with a full Seas A26 kit from Madisound, around $1,700. I mean, not sure these inexpensive speakers deserve quite the nit-picking done here.

2. Measuring mid-woofers is hard.

The standard practice for analyzing speakers is called "quasi-anechoic." That is, we pretend to do so in a room free of reflections or boundaries. You do this with very close measurements (within 1/2") of the components, blended together. There are a couple of ways this can be incomplete though.

a - Midwoofers measure much worse this way than in a truly anechoic room. The 7" Scanspeak Revelators are good examples of this. The close mic response is deceptively bad but the 1m in-room measurements smooth out a lot of problems. If you took the close-mic measurements (as seen in the spec sheet) as correct you’d make the wrong crossover.

b - Baffle step - As popularized and researched by the late, great Jeff Bagby, the effects of the baffle on the output need to be included in any whole speaker/room simulation, which of course also means the speaker should have this built in when it is not a near-wall speaker. I don’t know enough about the Klippel simulation, but if this is not included you’ll get a bass-lite expereinced compared to real life. The effects of baffle compensation is to have more bass, but an overall lower sensitivity rating.

For both of those reasons, an actual in-room measurement is critical to assessing actual speaker behavior. We may not all have the same room, but this is a great way to see the actual mid-woofer response as well as the effects of any baffle step compensation.

Looking at the quasi anechoic measurements done by ASR and Erin it _seems_ that these speakers are not compensated, which may be OK if close-wall placement is expected.

In either event, you really want to see the actual in-room response, not just the simulated response before passing judgement. If I had to critique based strictly on the measurements and simulations, I’d 100% wonder if a better design wouldn’t be to trade sensitivity for more bass, and the in-room response would tell me that.

3. Crossover point and dispersion

One of the most important choices a speaker designer has is picking the -3 or -6 dB point for the high and low pass filters. A lot of things have to be balanced and traded off, including cost of crossover parts.

Both of the reviews, above, seem to imply a crossover point that is too high for a smooth transition from the woofer to the tweeters. No speaker can avoid rolling off the treble as you go off-axis, but the best at this do so very evenly. This gives the best off-axis performance and offers up great imaging and wide sweet spots. You’d think this was a budget speaker problem, but it is not. Look at reviews for B&W’s D series speakers, and many Focal models as examples of expensive, well received speakers that don’t excel at this.

Speakers which DO typically excel here include Revel and Magico. This is by no means a story that you should buy Revel because B&W sucks, at all. Buy what you like. I’m just pointing out that this limited dispersion problem is not at all unique to Tekton. And in fact many other Tekton speakers don’t suffer this particular set of challenges.

In the case of the M-Lore, the tweeter has really amazingly good dynamic range. If I was the designer I’d definitely want to ask if I could lower the crossover 1 kHz, which would give up a little power handling but improve the off-axis response.  One big reason not to is crossover costs.  I may have to add more parts to flatten the tweeter response well enough to extend it's useful range.  In other words, a higher crossover point may hide tweeter deficiencies.  Again, Tekton is NOT alone if they did this calculus.

I’ve probably made a lot of omissions here, but I hope this helps readers think about speaker performance and costs in a more complete manner. The listening tests always matter more than the measurements, so finding reviewers with trustworthy ears is really more important than taste-makers who let the tools, which may not be properly used, judge the experience.

erik_squires

I’m not arguing this at all. I’m just saying that, by definition, it’s quasi. :) The results may be better than anechoic, but the measurements are considered quasi.  We are estimating an anechoic response even though the measurements themselves were not done in an anechoic environment.

Nope.  There is no "estimation" going on.  Klippel NFS makes dual scans separated by fixed distance.  This allows it to then detect the direct sound vs reflected sound due to phase differential.  The reflections are then filtered computationally.  This is what makes it superior to anechoic chambers which lose that characteristics at lower frequencies.  There is nothing "pseudo" about that.

Gated measurements are called "pseudo" because they lack low frequency resolution.  That makes them an estimate that is good at mid to high frequencies but not bass.  Klippel NFS solves this problem (and with higher SNR to boot).

"Fortunately for low frequencies we have ground plane measurements, which I believe are actually anechoic... but I’ll leave that to the scientists to debate. :-)"

Ground plane measurements have sources of error.  And require stitching to the gated measurements which again, can introduce errors. 

To be sure, you can get really good results with ground plane+gated measurements but it is very tedious.  See this post from our resident expert in that field: 

 

The fundamental problem with ASR and the like is that they believe everything that is meaningful regarding sound reproduction can be measured. In fact, the opposite is mostly true. Most things that can be heard to sound different (and judged to be better by everyone in the room) CANNOT be measured. Here is a list of things that cannot be measured;

1. Wire......all brands and types and whether is is cryoed and which direction you use it in......all SOUND different. Thousands of posts worldwide attesting to this.

2. Resistors.......all brands of resistors and types all sound different....even if they are the same inductance and general material. For instance, I ABed four different tiny surface mount resistors that were using the same material and all were the same size......all sounded different from each other.

3. Capacitors......right now a lot of people all over the world are upgrading their caps in their preamp, amp and speakers. Tons of posts about this all over the net.

4. Connectors.....yes, they all sound different. The guy at Qualio audio stated that the WBT nextgens were the ones for his speakers.

5. Solder......yes, all brands of solder sound different. I did straight wire bypass tests on 5 different types of solder in the early 80s. The reference was 5 inch pieces of wire and then we would solder 5 solder joints onto another piece of the same wire and A/B with the wire without solder joints.....none of the brands of solder passed the test. We chose this custom silver solder as the best and ordered a bunch but 6 months later that latest Wonder Solder was better.....

6. All cables sound different.....interconnect, digital cables, HDMI cables, ethernet cables, power cables, and speaker cables......the best connector is NONE....hard wire whenever possible.

7. Footers and stands all sound different.

8. Getting cables off the floor improves sound.

9. infinity.....everything sounds different.....he he.

Practically nothing above can be measured.....but it all CAN be heard. The die hard believers in the opposite of what I just stated will never listen to find out whether what I just stated is true or not. Here is a story that illustrates this:

3 buddies were invited over to someones house who owned modified Soundlabs speaker and a super front end. One of the 3 was someone who believed that amps sound different but not interconnects......he brough his new buddy who was new to audio and had told this newby about his point of view about wire. One of the other guys brought this cable (remember the peanut butter and jelly cable by Kimber?) to A/B with my friends super litz cable that he got the idea of in a dream. When they went to A/B the cables the non believer went into the kitchen so he would not have to be in the room. Of course, he could hear the sound from the kitchen and hear their commentary. All three in the room heard the same differences (quite marked). After they were done the non believer pulled his head our the the sand and rejoined them. They did even bother trying to talk to him about what they heard for they knew he was stubborn. If he would have stayed in the room and heard the difference he would have been WRONG for all those years. And if he stayed and then stated that they both sounded the same then he would have been given the stare by them......meaning...Are you deaf? They would never trust what he says again. Of course, the ego cannot handle those two scenarios......so best just to avoid listening.

This is what is going on in the objectivist camp.....they just keep stating the same things over and over and then go onto forums where 90% believe otherwise and point fingrers. Of course, they kick off their forum anyone who looks like the enemy.....they kicked me off. Once they saw that I sell and promote things that cannot be measured they started calling me a thief and con man........and we don’t want thiefs and conmen on our forum now, do we. They claim that I pray on the gullible.......what a laugh. I sell my inexpensive tweaks with a 30 day money back quarantee and everyone likes them......must be a lot of fools out there.....I mean, you cannot trust your own hearing. Who is more gullible? The people that try things in their own homes and decide for themselves or a bunch of followers of a cult that professes to have all the answers?

It certainly is simpler and cheaper to be an objectivist.....heck you just need any old source, a $700 preamp....a $700 DAC a $1000 amp, $1 a foot cables and whatever cheap speakers that measure flat and can handle power and you are good to go. If the latest DAC measures slightly better then you could or could not "upgrade".....since there really is no upgrading because what you have now is perfect. Yes, indeed a gullible illusion. REAL SCIENTISTS actually try things. The best INSTRUMENT for measuring sound reality is your EARS. However, you must have your heart and mind open to begin down the road of true knowledge.....If you live in your righteous ego based mind....you will never know the truth.

What I just stated is not going to convince anyone to shift their position. As long as the ego remains the supreme ruler we will never agree......the ego likes separation and fighting. The heart loves unity and oneness. I love everyone.....no matter what your silly mind thinks......and I know your soul.....in every one of you....loves me. Kisses and Hugs for everyone......forever. You are all infinitly beautfful.

I think it is pretty predictable that the invective that springs forth from the ASR community/cult, has spread as negativity always does. And it all comes from Amir. He is the leader and he justifies it. Just look at his image on the ASR site. A Geisha with a sneer. His intent is pretty clear with that alone. And his followers are not reasonable. They are aggressive to the extreme. That's the product of his leadership. 

This one sided reliance on measurement and the tendency to use those judgements to harm businesses by crying foul or fraud. I have to wonder how many honest audio entrepreneurs his group has damaged. It has to be extremely difficult to eke out success in this hobby. Not every product will shine brightest, but there has always been many paths to audio bliss. In this way, ASR has hurt all audiophiles. Because in the end, many of those paths will be lost forever. 

I think you are giving him to much power. Most people see through their game and I doubt that he has put anyone out of business. Hopefully we learn not to repeat bad behavior or thinking. If we resist him seriously then he gets stronger. For whatever you resist.....persists. We are the creators here. If we want to create a loving and intelligent world then we need to act loving and intelligent. Making him an enemy or putting him down is not intelligent. Whatever you put you mind on.....you become. Allow him to be just he way he is. He is beautiful and in time he will realize this more and more. This is of course true for all of us. Concentrate on the positive. Be happy. Be of service to everyone.......just don’t give energy/attention to those that are not in the greatest service. Don’t be a fighter/critic.....be a beacon of light. Just state your truth and let it go. We are all bozos on the bus. We are all learning. Let him have his playground......and let us play in our own playground.......one that is filled with infinite possibilities.

BTW, basic speaker measurements are super important. If you do not have a calibrated mic and some good software......HUH?.....why not? (very inexpensive). Speaker frequency response measurements in your room are highly informative. Especially direct sound readings. Having super off axis response is great for group listening or listening on the side of the room.......but in the hot seat (which always sounds the best even with a super great dispersion speaker)...what you hear is mostly what the mic says. If you stand up and don’t like the sound.....but never listen that way.....they why would you care. If you want sound that is great from all points in the room (standing, sitting. way off to the side) then you need a super dispersion speaker. Me, I sit in one spot.....that is where I measure. And when I measure reasonably flat response......that is how it sounds.

Most all preamps, DACs and amps measure flat frequency response......so their measurements mean very little. When Danny Richie gets in a speaker to mod the first thing he does in measure the frequency response......then he tweaks it. It is incredible how many speakers he gets in that do not measure well and his fixes are very, very simple. Almost anyone can do what Danny does. You measure and you get one of the free xover programs out there and go to town.......the program does most the the work by telling you what values to use and how to make it flat. You then put the components in and re-measure and fine tune. This is not rocket science......There is no reason a manufacturer should make a speaker that has crazy bad response......no reason. Does not need to happen in todays world.....Crossover design is mostly a science......of course, the parts you use and the execution all change the sound......but flat frequency response is easy as pie in todays world

Amir Derangement Syndrome. 

Seems to be a popular business model these days. But I do believe he is sincere. As is the EARmir side. (why is ear always capped?) Btw we listen with our brains. Neurons firing stimulating memories, emotions, current...past. Not to mention new pathways always in play. 

As to all cables sound different that is a stretch. Maybe in an Uber expensive system or some amazing ears, but having a hard time with that objective/subjective statement.

One more observation. Have their ever been products sold with excessive puffery with no attempt at real improvement of sound? All manufacturers are pure in heart and  excellent marketing is all in all. There has to be a line, amorphous yes, but there has to be some threshold besides my ears told you so.