Sound Stage and Imaging


I love speakers who 'paint a big picture' (I am literally closing my eyes and trying to SEE a picture). Therefore I THINK I like to see IMAGING and BIG SOUND STAGE. And also like DYNAMICS.

Being frugal (just not willing to spent audiophile level money on it), I love to persuit 'bang for buck' solutions in general.

With above goals in mind for a speaker: what hits the marks in the low fi (audiphile scale) $2k (used or new) budget range. (I have 2 setups: one HUGE room, one 20x20).

kraftwerkturbo

The best imaging is very hard to achieve. It is impossible in some rooms. The speakers have to be in symmetrical identical environments and have to have identical frequency response curves from 100 Hz to 12 kHz. This is difficult to achieve without digital signal processing. There can not be any serious phase aberrations and all drivers have to be time aligned. Full range loudspeakers with subwoofers are the best way to achieve this. The fewer analog crosses the better. Digital crossovers are better but rare. There is only one preamp that has them and that is the DEQX Pre 8. There are commercial dBx DriveRacks that could easily be used in a home system. Sanders uses one with his Model 10 loudspeaker.

Coming up with an entirely analog system that images at the state of the art is a matter of sheer luck. I use to sell and install systems in a previous life and I have heard only two such systems do it. It also requires the right live recordings. With studio recordings image "depth" is a matter of how much echo is applied. I view studio recordings as a different form of art, fun in it's own right, surrealistic. 

If the gear system dont present synergy problem between the pieces to begin with ...

If you can control the room acoustic timing of the directed and reflected waves and some control of the pressure zone distribution with a good ratio between absorption,reflection and diffusion...

If you control vibrations/resonance of the speakers...

Your system will create a relatively good imaging and a soundstage out of the speakers plane ...

If you can add the crosstalk filters of The BACCH system it will improve a lot because the problems of ALL STEREO SYSTEMS at any price is the crosstalk effect on the working brain/ears to compute sound source width dimensions and position in your room..

In a word digital usual DSP is not enough at all, contrary of what says myjostyn, and the most ridiculous claim ever : imaging is NEVER achieved by luck or haphazard owners actions , but by acoustic good conditions and gear synergy for sure ...

I know because BEFORE implementing acoustics necessary condition with my speakers/room , and this two times with different room and different amplifiers and speakers, i did not have imaging well done neither a big soundstage encompassing the listener position ...

Digital DSP with room correction may help for sure, it is a tool, but cannot work replacing room acoustics nor control speakers vibrations/resonance, nor replace the ears specific measures And HRTF measures ...

The best imaging will be reach with a DSP as the BACCH filters , once the room is acoustically done , the speakers response and the inner ears will be measured and the HTRF measures done , once for all , and used to recreate the spatial qualities lost in any stereo installation at any price because of speakers crosstalk impeding perception...

Simple digital DSP will never replace the BACCH nor replace room acoustics nor the necessary ears and HTRF measures ...Period...

 

Imaging dont result from luck by trial and errors or haphazard actions or accidents....

By  what will appear as luck but is not,  some room content and geometry and topology and dimensions are easier to work with ...Thats all ....Because all room will need acoustics conditions answered and worked with  the right way ... There is no luck in any acoustical manifested phenomena ... We must use the principles and work the system/room ...

Using digital DSP will not replace synergy between all pieces of gear , will not decrease vibrations, nor correct the electrical noise floor and will not transform a bad room acoustics in a better one ... it will put a band-aid on the physical perceived acoustics wounds ...It will not suppress crosstalk ... And if it does it , some DSP does it, it will be  with no comparison with the BACCH filters ...

The best imaging is not so hard to achieve BECAUSE it does not result from luck but from acoustic applied principle and synergy, and mechanical and electrical embeddings controls ... Digital DSP alone, without inner ears measures and HTRF measures which must be used and applied in an already acoustically controlled room, is not enough ... Even the BACCH dsp will need physical room acoustic to work optimally ...And no DSP correct the lack of gear synergy .;..

 

 

The best imaging is very hard to achieve. It is impossible in some rooms. The speakers have to be in symmetrical identical environments and have to have identical frequency response curves from 100 Hz to 12 kHz. This is difficult to achieve without digital signal processing. There can not be any serious phase aberrations and all drivers have to be time aligned. Full range loudspeakers with subwoofers are the best way to achieve this. The fewer analog crosses the better. Digital crossovers are better but rare. There is only one preamp that has them and that is the DEQX Pre 8. There are commercial dBx DriveRacks that could easily be used in a home system. Sanders uses one with his Model 10 loudspeaker.

Coming up with an entirely analog system that images at the state of the art is a matter of sheer luck. I use to sell and install systems in a previous life and I have heard only two such systems do it. It also requires the right live recordings. With studio recordings image "depth" is a matter of how much echo is applied. I view studio recordings as a different form of art, fun in it’s own right, surrealistic.

 

 

 

Harbeth P3: did they get a bulk deal on screws? Or are they just try hard to make the front as ugly as possible?

I do like the idea of small (2 way or even single) speaker since I am "sold" on subwoofer (even my Nautilus 804, surely not considered being 'weak down there' benefitted from the 18" sub helping under 50 Hz).

 

brand model price
Dali Menuet 2000
Ohm Walsh Microwalsh Short 2000
Indiana DIVA 660 2100
Revel Performa3-M106 2200
KEF R3 Meta 2200
Tannoy Tannoy Autograph Mini 2200
Gato Gato FM-15 2300
Spendor A1 2300
Fyne F500SP 2300
Creative Sound Solutions CSS Criton 1TD-X 2349
Salk ELLIS 1801 2400
Paradigm Founder 40B 2400
PSB PSB Passif 50 2500
Totem Bison Monitor 2500
KHL Model Five 2500
Revival Atalante 3 2500
Triangle Comete EZ 2500
Ohm Walsh Tall 1000 2700
JBL L82 Classic 2750
MoFi SourcePoint 8 2750
Spendor Classic 4/5 2800
Monitor Audio Gold 100 2800
Audio Physic Step 35 2800
Elac VELA BS 403 2900
Zu Union 6 2900
Charney Audio The Maestro 2900
Martin Logan ElectroMotion 3000
Castle Avon 5 3000
Vienna Acoustics Haydn-se-signature 3000
Sonus Faber Sonetto II Bookshelf 3000
Trenner Friedl Sun 3000
Klipsch Heritage Heresy IV 3200
Buchardt S400 MKII Signature 3200
Reference 3a MM DE CAPO BE MONITOR 3290
Creative Sound Solutions Criton 2TD-X Tower 3300
Vandersteen VLR CT 3300
Usher Mini X Diamond DMD 3350
Aperionaudio Verus V8T 3400
B&W 705 S3 3400
Harbeth P3ESR XD 3500
Nola Boxer 3 3500
Totem Signature One 3500
Dynaudio Special Forty 3500
Canton reference 9k 3500
Amphion Argon3S 3600
Amphion Helium520 3600
Joseph Audio Prism 3700
MoFi SourcePoint 10 3700
Fritz FRITZ CARRERA 3800
ProAc Response DB1 3825
Perlisten R4B 3900
Wharfedale AURA 3 4000

 

if your budget is 2K, you may get used up to 4K or more

I love speakers who 'paint a big picture' (I am literally closing my eyes and trying to SEE a picture). Therefore I THINK I like to see IMAGING and BIG SOUND STAGE. And also like DYNAMICS.

Being frugal (just not willing to spent audiophile level money on it), I love to persuit 'bang for buck' solutions in general.

With above goals in mind for a speaker: what hits the marks in the low fi (audiphile scale) $2k (used or new) budget range. (I have 2 setups: one HUGE room, one 20x20).

 

I am a huge fan of imaging and soundstage. That is what sucks me into the music, and provides me with a deeper connection with the music.

That being said, the best way to spend your $2000.00, is a DIY kit, of which, there are plenty that are quite high end. Building a kit, will yield a speaker that will easily rival a commercially available speaker at 3-5X the price. Big bang for the buck can't get any greater than DIY!

Since you are not spending money on paying for marketing, advertising, shipping an entire speaker, so much more of your money is going into the actual parts.

For example, GR Research NX-Studio kit is (with all the crossover upgrades) $1345.00. Don't feel like doing your own woodwork? Buy the flatpacks for another $379.00. and your a bit under your budget, but the end results will sound like a commercially available speaker for substantially more. 

The planar magnetic tweeter is semi open baffler, so they create a huge open soundstage, and very specific imaging.