KLaudio or Degritter Mark II

@oldaudiophile,

Below is a compare and contrast I did for someone regarding the Degritter vs the KLAudio.  This post is a quick overview of some of rules with ultrasonic cleaning: Audiogon Discussion Forum to refesh if needed.  Note that owning neither of these devices, I am presenting info only as an unbiased consultant. Hopefully the information presented can be of some help to you.  Otherwise, each has its pluses and minuses, cost notwithstanding.  

Take care, Neil

1. Price:

a. The Degritter MKII is about $3,300. The only real add on's are a 2nd tank at $120 Search (musicdirect.com)

b. The KLAudio starts at $6500 and with add-ons such multiple record cleaning kit and silencer and you can add another $4.8K Vinyl Records, SACDs, DVD Audio, Audiophile Equipment|Acoustic Sounds

2. Appearance & Construction & Support.

a. The Degritter outside skin is plastic. There are no internal photos available, so the quality of the internal construction is unknown. But Degritter has been very supportive of its customers and has supported with procedures those that are willing to performed DIY warranty work; so, their unit is repairable.

b. The KLAudio is slabs of aluminum. Internal photos that are available show a pretty robust repairable construction -Klaudio LP200 Ultrasonic Record Cleaner - Driver Board Replacement - Audionirvana.org. KLAudio support is not as apparent as Degritter, but that could be a function of having less problems. Arizona-Mike (now very well-known from the MoFi debacle) did a nice review of the new KLAudio 200T The Best Way To CLEAN and STORE Your Records + KLaudio 200s & 200t Ultrasonic Cleaner Review - Bing video

3. Durability:

a. The Degritter is not an industrial unit and whether it will last consistently past cleaning 3000 records is unknown.  One person has reported 10,000, while many report failures about 3000.  But Degritter did recently announce that they would be offering a rebuild for $610 - Degritter Users | Page 117 | Steve Hoffman Music Forums so that shows depth of support.  Also, Degritter frequently updates the software that operates the unit.  

b. KLAudio has not offered any similar standard rebuild, but the experience of Arizona Mike and Bill Hart @whart of the The Vinyl Press - should give confidence. Whether KLAudio who stopped and then is now back to selling (exclusive to Acoustic Sounds who I believe bought a minimum # of units) could give one pause, but the company in general appears robust still developing new products.  KLAudio is not known for updating operating software.

c. The Degritter pump and valves are a weakness. Part of the problem is that the pump is internal and is small. The new KLAudio 200T with the external pump & filter offers a much more robust and easier to repair design. But do you have the requisite space - The Ultrasonic vinyl cleaner owners thread | Page 34 | Steve Hoffman Music Forums. The Degritter does have a 'flush' routine that is used to keep the valves clean.  But the Degritter design does need to prime the pump where the external KLAudio is kept immersed all the time - see below.  

4. Cleaning Agents:

a. The Degritter allows use of other cleaning agents, but the pump/filter system is sensitive to foaming, so only very low (or no) foaming cleaning agents can be used. Its best to just use the Degritter Cleaning Fluid except better to use only 1 ml to 1.5 ml per tank. The Degritter Cleaning Fluid is nothing more than a wetting/rinse aid.  Degritter has updated their software to add a rinse cycle where you would swap tanks with one filled only with DIW.

b. KLAudio is specific manual_kd-cln-lp200t_d100eng.pdf (klaudio.com) about stating not to use any cleaning agent, and states:  Distilled water is not recommended, because the electrical conductivity may be too low for the cleaner to begin the wash cycle.  This is likely due to the water level sensors. I would be very hesitant to use tap water.  Bottled water such as Dasani water-analysis-report-2019.pdf (dasani.com) shows TDS at 36 ppm which is not bad.  You may get by with using 50:50 of Dasani:DIW for a TDS about 20 ppm (measured with a good TDS meter -COM-100 – hmdigital.com).

5. What about cleaning a record:

a. The Degritter is 120kHz, 300W (four 75W transducers) and 1.4L tank. This is powerful unit, but keep in mind that as the kHz increases, they require more power for cavitation. The cavitation bubble is about 20 microns, so it can get into the groove, but the small diameter limits cavitation intensity which can impact ability to clean heavy surface detritus. But the wetting solution can offset this. But some people find that unless a rinse cycle is applied with a 2nd tank, that cleaner residue can affect the playback fidelity - softening of the high frequencies. Overall, the higher kHz does limit how well this can clean dirty used records - and most people use something else for preclean.

b. The KLAudio is 40kHz, 200W (four 50W transducers) and 0.77L tank (someone recently measured). This is a very powerful unit for this kHz (make no mistake the most powerful of these UT all-in-one record cleaning units) and the cavitation bubble at about 75 microns while not getting into the groove should be very effective for surface detritus, but the very high cavitation intensity/jetting (from the very high power) should reach deep into the groove. The lack of using any wetting solution can limit how well this can clean dirty used records - and most people use vacuum RCM or manual process for preclean.

c. Both units use a fan air-dry, and depending on your local environment, dust/lint can be deposited during the drying process.  Placing a HEPA filter in the general area should help.  

6. Bath Management:

a. The Degritter has a small filter of limited performance at best is 75 microns. They recommend replacing the bath once/week or about every 25-30 records - Degritter-manual-v2.2-ENG.pdf. If you want better cleaning - replace the bath more frequently. The filter needs to be periodically cleaned and replacements are inexpensive - but these do not begin to approach the KLAudio. 

b. The KLAudio new design has its filter external to the unit and is much larger than the Degritter.  KLAudio states "When using the filter, the distilled water should be replaced about every 500 discs, every few weeks, or if the water appears particularly dirty". If you want your records clean, replace the water more frequently - do not wait until the water is visibly dirty, otherwise you are cleaning record with dirty fluid. KLAudio does not specify the filter micron rating, but from the pictures and cost, it appears to be probably a standard 5” cartridge that is readily available at 5-micron Pentek P Series Spec Sheet (pentair.com).  Note that due to the low-head (discharge pressure) submersible centrifugal pump that KLAudio uses, a finer filter would present too much pressure drop.

7. Work Throughput:

a. The Degritter will go into a cool-down cycle (35C) after about two Heavy clean cycles. At medium and below most people report good throughput without the unit going into a cool-down. The cool-down is just simply 300W into 1.4L water; it can heat the water as much as 5.5F/min.

b. The KLAudio reservoir holds much more water (~2.5L) than the unit actually needs which does a couple of items: It keeps the pump primed, and it helps to keep the water cool. Assuming no thermal losses, 200W can heat 770-ml about 6-degF/min. If you were to a run a 5-min cycle (first run of the day) when the unit drained down - the temperature of the drain hose should feel warm compared to the reservoir. After a number of cycles, the reservoir should warm up, and eventually with ambient at low-mid-70's, reach some equilibrium temperature.  But with an external tank, that should be enough to prevent any over-temp issue - the KLAudio manual says it alarms at 40C.  

8. Other:

a. The Degritter has a very good operating manual Update your record cleaner software | Degritter - the KLAudio is more an installation manual.

b. The Degritter warranty is 2-yrs. The KLAudio appears to be just 1-yr.
 

As always, Neil provides the definitive evaluation and comparison 😊 .

@antinn You are indispensable!

My last foray of record cleaning involved the use of LAST POWER RECORD CLEANER (used as directed) as a pre-cleaning step.

Then, I used a Knosti Disco Anti-Stat filled with Mobile Fidelity Super Record Wash as another pre-cleaning step, rotating the records in the bath at least half a dozen times in both directions.

The next step involved use of an RoHS Model 30A 180W ultrasonic power 200W cleaning power 40Khz 6L digital ultrasonic cleaner filled with distilled water and 15ml of Tergitol.15-S-9, set to 72 degrees Fahrenheit for 15-minute cleaning cycles.  I ran the machine for 30 minutes at the same temperature, prior to cleaning records, thinking this would accomplish degassing.  Then, I cleaned 3 records at a time in the ultrasonic using CleanerVinyl's record rotating motor set for .5 RPM, their old-style screw-on spacers that separates records by approximately 11/16", their record lifting & lowering device and their 6l one micron filtration device.

The last step (excluding treating dry records with LAST RECORD PRESERVATIVE) involved another go-around in the same ultrasonic machine, filled with only distilled water (same degassing protocol) and set to the same temperature and cleaning/rinsing cycles.

The results I obtained were at least as effective as a previous time when I used Mobile Fidelity's Super Record Wash for the ultrasonic cleaning fluid, no heat, and the same 15-minute cleaning cycles at 5 RPM rotation.  In a direct comparison with the original Degitter, using only my ears for fidelity comparison, I found the Degritter did no better.

The allure of machines like the Degritter, KLAudio and some others, from my perspective, is and has always been ease of operation, smaller footprint and, basically, eloquence.  Be that as it may, I and many other audiophiles, I'm sure, continue to struggle with the thousands of dollars such eloquence affords.

I'm wondering if the Elma Ultrasonic P60H, with its sweep frequency and 37 to 80 Khz settings might be a cost-effective alternative to consider.

Thoughts, Sensei?

As always, I cannot thank you enough for whatever time and attention you bring to this!

I own a H Guru and have used the KL and the DeGritter ( version 1). The Guru, so long as one uses a surfactant (crucial), works well. The results from the KL, with a surfactant, were slightly better than the Guru and the DeGritter. The DeGritter offers a better build than the Guru, as does of course the KL. If build quality and ability to do multiple LP’s over time, ie for library work, then the order of preference is attached to the price asked. For the money, the Guru, for most folks, is an easy answer and the best option. IMO.

@oldaudiophile,

First some observations on your current cleaning regime: 

1. The 15-ml of Tergitol 15-S-9 in a 6L bath = [(15-ml)/(6000-ml)]x100% = 0.25% which is 5-10X greater than what I recommend in the book - XIV.9.4.  Did you mean 15-ml or 1.5ml?
2. The spacing of 11/16 is too close for a 40-kHz machine, 1" would be better.
3. The CleanerVinyl: Ultrasonic Vinyl Cleaning Systems pump is 1.5-lpm (it does not filter the tank in 4-min, more on that later).  If you are cleaning 3-records at time with the pump operating and you plug & chug into the equation XIV.5.3.e, you get 0.5-rpm, so you are good here.
4. The UT tank RoHS Model 30A 180W ultrasonic power - what is this?  Is this one of the low-cost Chinese units such as Ultrasonic Cleaner PS-30A - China Ultrasonic Cleaner (made-in-china.com)?  How much does the water heat-up after 15-min, after 30-min.  There is advertised power and then there is real-power that gets into the bath.
5. Using the equation XIV.15.3, a 1.5-lpm pump/filter will take about 14-min to filter 97.5% of the tank. 
6. As far as Last Record Treatment, my position is to leave the record with a residue-free surface.  But I acknowledge other people's opinions, and no further comment.  

Now on to the Elamsonic P60, and I have worked with a number of people setting up their process.  

1. The Elmasonic P-series UCM is dual frequency - 37kHz and 80kHz; with pulse power and the P60H PP_Elmasonic_P60H_EN.pdf (elma-ultrasonic.com) is a 6L tank. Elmasonic has an excellent operator manual - Elmasonic P Ultrasonic Cleaning Units - Operating Instructions (elma-ultrasonic.co.nz). The Elmasonic P-series are powerful units.  The Elamsonic rating appears real since the tank heats accordingly from user experience; and if running sequential cycles, you may need to stop periodically to allow the tank to cool or install a cooler/radiator (addressed book XIV.15.2) to allow high throughput.
2. With the dual frequency you get the best of both worlds, the 37kHz for precleaning and then 80kHz for final cleaning. For the few really dirty records - clean them manually then clean with UCM. Note: with the dual frequency you should secure the pump/filter when operating at 37kHz (depending on # of records) but then operate the pump/filter at 80kHz. At higher frequencies, cavitation is not affected by tank flow rate. It has to do with the cavitation bubble size that is proportional to the kHz.
3. The general process for the Elamasonic P-series is the first phase is run at 80% power for 10 minutes under the auto frequency change mode where the tank runs at 37kHz for 30 seconds then it switches to 80kHz for 30 seconds, back and forth. The second phase runs for 10 minutes at 80kHz at 100% power or 100% in pulse power.
4. Bottom firing transducers may provide a cleaning benefit. In a traditional UCM with bottom firing transducers, the acoustic waves that are propagating upward through the liquid will reflect downward from the fluid surface. When reflected downward the acoustic waves will combine with the upward acoustic wave and the subsequent wave can be constructive(amplifying) if in-phase or destructive (attenuated) if out of phase. Ultimately areas/layers of higher acoustic energy/cavitation (standing waves) will form and there will be areas/layers of lower acoustic energy/cavitation. The standing waves tend to layer at a distance 1/2 of the wavelength with the book Table XXI showing the wavelengths and resultant standing wave of common UCMs frequencies; highlighted blue. The spacing of the standing wave is relative to themselves. Their position in the tank relative to a fixed point is dependent on the reflected surface – is it hard or soft; water height and other factors such as the type of transducer and water temperature. But the record(s) is rotating and standing waves may be beneficial since the record is exposed to a scrubbing type action as the record alternately moves from areas of lower cavitation intensity to areas of higher cavitation intensity and the Elmasonic pulse function should further enhance the scrubbing action.

This setup tima's DIY RCM | What's Best Audio and Video Forum. The Best High End Audio Forum on the planet! (whatsbestforum.com) uses two UT tanks using the P120 with the high-end filtration system addressed in the book with a 2nd cheaper 12L UT for rinse.

Let me emphasize that the P-series are powerful units.  One individual was running at 0.15-rpm and allowed the tank to reach 50C, and one record was damaged (a molted surface occurred - but played OK).  Lesson learned - do not spin to slow and do not let the tank get to hot.

Now for the extensional question - will the Elamasomic P60 yield a cleaner record than what you are getting now - it may.  Depends on what you are cleaning.  But if you are pre-cleaning before UT, you should be able to just use a no-rinse bath of Tergitol 15-S-9 at 0.004%.  This is 0.24-ml per tank.  This is 6-drops from a Nalgene Dropper Bottle Nalgene 2 oz. Leakproof Travel Dropper Bottle | The Container Store.  The Nalgene Dropper Bottle delivers accurately 0.04-ml/drop - Factors to consider in accuracy and precision of Nalgene Dropper Bottles (thermofisher.com).  For this no-rinse formula, 2% IPA can make a difference, but if using the bath for extended periods (weeks), you will need to periodically re-add Tergitol and IPA.  

As I always say, the devil is in the details, and the best cleaning process is the one that is best for you.

Take care,

Neil