What is turntable “liveliness”.
I have listened to turntables for sixty years. I bought my first high end TT about thirty years… it was revelatory. I do not swap tables often. I do a huge amount of research and then stay with one for fifteen years or so. My most recent upgrade was from a VPI Aries (heavy mass) to a Linn LP12 (light weight, sprung)…very nearly the very top level. Could we please not turn this into a religious thing about Linn… mine is an outstanding TT which compares favorably with any other $45K analog leg (TT, cartridge, and Phonostage)
The term lively comes up in descriptions. One of the differences in character I noticed between the VPI and Linn… which I thought might be considered liveliness was to me a bit of what I perceived as the images very slightly jumping around… the kind of thing you would think of when you see films of “The Flash” maybe vibrating in place. While I found this gave me the feeling of the notes wanting to jump out at me, I found it a bit disconcerting. I attributed it to a relatively light weight rig, that is really good at rejecting low frequency vibrations (it is a sprung table… known to be lively sounding) up to a relatively high frequency… but beyond that not. Something a really heavy rig would not be effected by.
To test my theory, I had a Silent Running Ohio Class vibration platform constructed for my turntable. The image smear, as I called it disappeared. There is no smear and it has great solidity.
Is this attribute “liveliness”?
@terry9 …”As I understand it, ’lively’ is the opposite of ’dead’. I hear ’dead’ as resonance free, dull, which is bad in a piano and good in a turntable, I hear turntable ’liveliness’ as accentuated high frequency which makes everything sound sharp, as in jagged.”
Thanks. That is what I was looking for… different perspectives so I can figure it out. That is good. I’ll need to think about that and see how it fits in to my experience… but, I think you are right.
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It is interesting to someone like me with no turntable since 45 years ago to read this thread... I was irritated by my turntable and the bad vinyl album i was listening too 45 five years ago ... I discarded my system till cd entered the place... And bad turntable in room with no acoustic was not better than cd primitive system when i begun... Now reading this i am very pleased to not deal with the very complex problem created by vinyl and turntable... I understand those who enjoy it for sure...There is a difference and i dont doubt it but not so great now with new tech...... I had so much hard time with room acoustic and how to figure it out ... But you can create a small room acoustic with no money... I dont think that a great turntable experience will be possible with no money to invest in vinyl albums and in turntable platter, cartridge and needle coontrol... this is why i am not interested personally... Audiophile experience under 1000 bucks excluded turntable and vinyl albums for cost reason... but few people here need and want a 1000 bucks audio system i think and even think that it is possible for one to be more than only good... 😊😁😉
And any "liveliness" experience , nevermind the gear is experienced through room acoustic if the room make it possible or not.... I imagine a 10,000 bucks turntable can do it better than a cheap one but in a bad room it will be not optimal at all... |
Does a unmodulated groove or blank record make noise? Yes. It makes far more noise than any bearings on a decent turntable. In fact sounds like bearing noise. Or the ocean. The vinyl is never perfect. Then, is the album perfectly concentric? Is the hole precisely in the middle? It often isn’t. If not the speed is off. In addition any small warpage of the vinyl causes sound changes. I stand by my statement that any "turntable" (not the tone arm/cartridge which is light years more important to sound) that has a sound means that there is something wrong it. In addition, between the imperfections of vinyl and the cutting etc the noise or sound of almost any decent turntable is not heard when the music is playing. The placebo bias is strong with this turntable thing. The expensive ones sound better because we expect them to and they have great tone arms and cartridges.
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Mahgister, if you preferred early RBCDs to vinyl as it was ca mid-1980s, then just to begin with, we are miles apart. I found early RBCDs to be so odious that I could not stand to hear them even in someone else’s house, let alone in mine. Ossicle, Like I and someone else said, you have a lot to learn about turntables. This is not to say that I think you have to spend $50K to hear differences among turntables, or even $25K, or even $10K. Anyway, your position is weakening; you just wrote "almost any decent turntable". That implies you concede that some decent turntables sound different from other decent turntables. Finally, of course there is something "wrong" when you can "hear" a TT. That’s the point. |
@ossicle2brain You have pointed out the points I made a concern for myself to attempt to improve upon many years ago. My journey took me to the point that I was having Platter Spindle Bearing Interfaces optimised using the original housing to undergo modification. That lead on to the complete Bearing Housing being swapped out for a new design one on a certain Brand of TT. I have more recently reverted back to having other TT's have their original Bearing Housing modified, but there are now new ideas evolving that will mean new bearing housings are to be produced for my 'go to' TT. The efforts have certainly improved centricity of the Spindle Rotations and when the parts are bespoke produced for each Housing Spindle, the run off measurements are much improved over the OEM. Unfortunately if very low microns being recorded are to be goal as a measurement, then the original bearing designs are not able to cut it, a rethink and substantial materials are required to produce the redesign. At present there is a lot on offer to minimise the impact of non-centricity of the Album, and reduce the fluctuations that can be detected in the speed. An off board - standalone strobe will quickly show speed fluctuations due to eccentric rotations. Hydrodynamic Lubrication is a almost impossible condition to maintain within the bearing housing when working with a typical journal bearing design. It is strongly suggested metal/metal contact will occur, this occurrence equates to noise and over time wear of a sacrificial parts metal, resulting in abrasive dust as an interface. Removing metal/metal contact, as a result of exchanging parts, has a major improvement on the noise produced at the time of Spindle and Sacrificial parts coming into contact, the method certainly removes concerns for abrasive dust as well.
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