Weak Link in Vinyl Playback


Hi Everyone,

I’m looking for some input on a weak link in my system, mostly in regards to my vinyl playback chain in a 12’x11’ room.

I currently have a Technics SL-1700 MK1 with an AT-VM95ML cartridge. The turntable is connected to an iFi Zen Phono. The phono is connected to a Schiit Saga S via 3 ft. Blue Jeans BJC LC-1 cable, and the Saga runs to a single Schiit Vidar by the another set of the same cable. The Vidar is connected to Elac Debut B6.2’s via 10 ft. Belden 50000UE cable (as an aside, my digital path is Pro Ject S2 Pre Box Digital connected by the same 3ft. interconnects to the Saga>Vidar>speakers). I’ve connected a sub previously (a Martin Logan Grotto I that I inherited) to the Saga in the past, but am currently running without it.

My concern is that while the digital path sounds full to me, at least as much as can be expected, the vinyl path sounds a bit thin and weak. I guess I’d describe it as kind of lacking energy. My gut tells me the Saga S having 0 gain in both the passive and buffer mode (I run it in passive mode because it sounds more lifelike to me but I’ve used the buffer in the past as well) is the reason for this, but I’m not positive. I’m ready to upgrade to the Freya S if that’s the solution, but I didn’t want to start throwing money at a problem without really narrowing it down first. The Zen phono is set to MM and gain 1, which should be correct for my cartridge, the interconnects aren’t overly long (the speaker cable being 10’ isn’t too big a deal, I think?), the Vidar should be driving my inefficient speakers with no issue and judging by the digital path, it is. 

I’m hoping someone here can weigh in on what would make the biggest positive impact in my listening and give me the oomph I think I’m missing. For what it’s worth, I plan on doing some room treatment down the road, but that’s not what I’m looking for advice on at the moment.


Thanks!

owl9113

@owl9113 In answer to your question, I purchased a used McIntosh MC100, a two-piece 50th anniversary edition 2-piece (circa 1992) preamp for which I probably paid too much. It has both a Moving Magnet and Moving Coil input. The MC input features a step-up transformer by Ortophon. But I’m not currently using it with my turntable. Because of electromagnetic interference issues with my new (to me) B&W 801 Series II speakers, I have gone back to the Elac PPA-2 ‘Alchemy’ phono stage which allows the user to ‘dial in’ the impedance loading for each of its two inputs, one of which allows for balanced inputs from the cartridge. But I’m not using any of that because I have a Sumiko ‘Songbird’ cartridge which is characterized as a ‘high output’ Moving Coil design which calls for the standard 47 kOhm impedance loading, and puts out the also standard 2.5 mV. I am taking advantage of the Elac’s balanced outputs, though, in order to install the turntable on a stand in the next room and thus avoid both EM interference and a cluttered room. Please note that the balanced connection usually adds at least 3 dB to an unbalanced line (sometimes 6dB) and adds Common Mode Noise Rejection as well. I made the cables between the Elac and the preamp (I’m using they Freya+) 25 ft long —no problem.

So, that is my solution at the moment. I can get decent volume from the Freya into my McIntosh MC252 power amp while in buffered mode. When I want to ‘crank it up’ on an old favorite, I lift the needle and switch into Tube mode to pick up 6dB of gain (and some tube distortion). 
Regarding your issue at present, it seems to me that you basically have a mismatch between your cartridge and your phono stage. I don’t have any experience with the Ifi unit, but I heed the advice of both atmasphere (who manufactures world-class phono stages, preamps, and especially amplifiers, both tube and solid state, if you didn’t know) and JasonBourne71 who point to high inductance of any Moving Magnet design, not just your AT-VM95SH. I looked up the specs on your cartridge on the Crutchfield site, and the output from your dual magnet design was 3.5 mV (I don’t know what Magister was looking at); so your cartridge is putting out plenty of voltage. The specs also note a capacitance load of 100-200 pF. The Hagermann calculator atmasphere linked to would want that value to be in the 10-20 pF range for optimal loading. Not too many phono stages allow one to set the capacitance loading; sometimes one has to open up the box and actually swap capacitors in and out to make the adjustment, and as atmasphere noted, adjusting gain has no effect on the capacitance or impedance loading issue. 
Finally, I will note that the manufacturer of my turntable, MusicHall (the company’s owner’s name is Hall), ships their units (at least the 5.3 model I have) with some very high quality, directional, RCA cables. I think these cables account for a good portion of the turntable’s quietness compared to my former DJ-style Numark PTT-1 even when outfitted with balanced cables. So, before you drop too much money on a new phono stage, line stage, or power amp (or integrated amp), you might want to check with Blue Jeans about the suitability of your cables for your application. You might also want to check with Ifi to see how well it matches the requirements of your cartridge and if there is any way to change their unit’s capacitive loading, it may be undocumented. And as Elliott advises, in the meantime save your money and consider what a ‘perfect’ solution would look like to you. While I like the flexibility offered by separates; integrated solutions, done well, offer great value for money. At least you’re guaranteed (or reasonably assured) someone who offers a phono input has gone to the trouble of matching its output to the internal line stage! Consider what ‘house sound’ you prefer. I love my McIntosh gear, others disparage it profusely, some like Marantz, others sing the praises of PS Audio or Audio Research, or Atmasphere. To each their own; it’s your system after all. 

You likely have no equipment issue at all.  Vinyl as a source material will vary substantially depending on recording and pressing quality.  Before spending money (plenty of those suggestions above), why not acquire a known excellent vinyl recording and give it a spin?  I have many records that pale as compared to digital…and others that are far, far better. 
 

 

@owl9113 In case I misunderstood your question, the ‘devices’ I used to setup my cartridge on the Numark table included the Riverstone Audio Record-Level Turntable Stylus Vertical Tracking Force Gauge (a very handy item), a full-size protractor in the shape of an LP record, and Analogue Production’s test record which called for the use of a Hagermann Inverse RIAA filter, a multimeter, and an oscilloscope. My old Hewlett-Packard analog scope couldn’t deal with the milliVolt level signal being putout by the cartridge and I realized that for much less than the cost of the test equipment I could buy a used turntable already setup with a new cartridge by someone who had invested in the test equipment I lacked; so that is what I did. 

@owl9113 Another thing I noticed while I was on the Crutchfield site was that your particular cartridge was specified for S-shaped tonearms ONLY. It has a fancy Shibata shaped stylus that evidently requires the S-shaped tonearm install. If your turntable has a straight-arm, that may be contributing to your issue. 

@oldrooney my head is spinning from all of this, haha. Thank you so much for the wealth of information. I actually have the microline cartridge, the AT-VM95ML.

Setting the gain level to "2" on my iFi phono, which is how the user "adjusts" the load value on this unit, makes it 47K Ohms (as opposed to gain level "1" - 47K Ohms ((Load: 110pF for MM)). Between that change and @jasonbourne71 suggestion of active mode on the Saga, I'm getting closer to the volume and push I experience with my digital sources. Does this back up the idea of a mismatch between my cartridge and phono? If that's the case, I'm going to have replace one or the other. I guess what I'm trying to narrow down is whether it's just a matter of mismatch or if one of the components is just lackluster.