Phono Stage upgrade to complement Dohmann Helix One Mk 2


Thanks to the recommendations from many users on this Audiogon blog, I think I was able to make a more informed purchase of a turntable, the Dohmann Helix One Mk 2.  I've really been enjoying the turntable for the past month!  

The next phase of my system now needs attention:  the phono stage.  Currently, I'm using a Manley Steelhead v2 running into an Ypsilon PST-100 Mk2 SE pre-amplifier (into Ypsilon Hyperion monoblocks, into Sound Lab M745PX electrostatic speakers). 

I've been told that I could really improve my system by upgrading the phono stage from the Manley Steelhead (although I've also been told that the Manley Steelhead is one of the best phono stages ever made).  
Interestingly, two of the top phono stages that I'm considering require a step-up transformer (SUT).  I'm not fully informed about any inherent advantages or disadvantages of using an SUT versus connecting directly to the phono stage itself.  

I suppose my current top two considerations for a phono stage are the Ypsilon VPS-100 and the EM/IA  LR Phono Corrector, both of which utilize an SUT.  I don't have a particular price range, but I find it hard to spend $100k on stereo components, so I'm probably looking in the $15k - $70k price range. 
Thanks. 

drbond

@rauliruegas , Raul, I have been using subwoofers with ESLs since 1979. The system then was Acoustat Model Xs, with two RH Labs subwoofers, a Dahlquist crossover and Kenwood LO 7M amps. The model Xs were soon replaced by Monitor 4s which were planted on top of the RH Labs subs. Since then I have been through every permutation involving ESLs you can think of including Velodyns. Lew does not like it when I preach and here you are asking me to preach.

Subwoofer integration was a frustrating process of trial and error up until the introduction of digital signal processing by the TacT corporation which has now morphed into Lyngdorf.  The first step is to determine what kind of main speaker you have and how it functions at the expected crossover point, point or line source. The subwoofer array has to match this radiation pattern. Subwoofers are always more efficient against walls and in corners. Rule #1 is never use just one subwoofer, two is the minimum. 

The trick is to use the highest crossover point possible without allowing the sub to creep into the midrange. This requires slopes higher than what is practical for analog crossovers. I use 100 Hz at 48 dB/oct. The more bass you take away from an ESL the better it performs. It is critical for time and phase to match the main speakers. This is a breeze to do digitally and virtually impossible in analog fashion.

There are many great subwoofer drivers out there now. The real problem is the enclosure. Any subwoofer driver producing 20 Hz at 90 dB is going to make the enclosure shake at 20 Hz. Any shaking of the enclosure is distortion. To counteract this smart designers place identical drivers at opposite ends of the enclosure running in phase so that their Newtonian forces cancel out. This is called balanced force design. Magico, Martin Logan, Kef and MS tool make balanced force subwoofers. Increasing the mass of the enclosure does not stop it from shaking. The next problem is making the enclosure entirely non resonant at subwoofer operating frequencies which means very stiff walls made from critically damped materials. Magico uses aluminum, Kef uses composite and I am not sure what ML uses, probably MDF. I use 1.5 inch thick maple plywood. Plywood is stiffer than MDF. It is more expensive and harder to work with. Keeping the enclosure as small as possible helps in this regard. Play a loud bass heavy song and put your hand on the sub enclosure, any shaking or vibration you feel is distortion. You should feel none. 

The low pass filters most manufacturers use in their subwoofers are little more than a joke. To tune a system correctly you need a two way crossover with crossover points and slopes adjustable from the listening position. You should not be able to sonically separate or locate subwoofers.  They should seem invisible except for the added bass they provide. The most significant feature is the reduction of distortion in the main speakers. With two or three way speakers this reduction occurs only in the range handled by the woofer but in full range ESLs it applies to the entire frequency range and is even more obvious even if Lew disagrees. 

Finally, smaller drivers are not faster. They have to move farther and faster to produce the same note at the same volume creating more distortion along the way. Larger drivers produce bass with less distortion. You can produce the same effect with multiple smaller drivers. It is a matter of how much surface area you have in operation. To produce 18 Hz with authority in a 15 X 25 foot room with reasonably low distortion you need at least two 12" or four 10" drivers. There is a limit in terms

of size. Larger heavier cones are more difficult to control and can wobble creating distortion. I have seen strobe light videos displaying this. Where the limit is I have no idea. I think in the home situation drivers larger than 15" are unnecessary, just use multiples if you need more. The system I am building now uses eight 12" drivers, two in each enclosure.  

Room control is a nice addition for subwoofers but it does not excuse poor acoustic management of the room. Room control (really speaker control) can stress amps and drivers otherwise and cause more harm than good. This is another reason for using multiple subwoofers. Multiple subwoofers in different locations evens out the bass response within the room. 

Bedtime

I truly did wonder why you thought Raul’s quote was humorous. Along the way, I could not resist the anatomical pun.

@lewm I liked the pun. So you get a point.
(But let’s try and resist using digital in an anatomical pun please.)

 

The two best and most expensive electronic crossovers I know about are the Pass XVR1 and the Bryston.

I assume you mean “electronic” as in solder and parts?

The DEXQ is more like a MiniDSP, Lyngdorf or Trinov, but for more a 2-channel.
It is likely overkill, but subs, and bi-wire binding posts, then it has some allure that  could allow it to be used as a 3 way XO.
It is a digital solution and the pricing reflects it as being digital.

Hmmm…this subwoofer project is looking complicated:

it seems like an ideal approach would be an in line high pass filter after my pre-amplifier, but this would have to be an analog filter, correct?

(I can see myself reacting to a cello that sounds like it’s in one place for the higher notes, and another for the lower strings/notes…)

…or replace my pre-amplifier, which I really enjoy listening to, with a digital pre amplifier that has filters built into it…which I am averse to do…

Dear @mijostyn : " and here you are asking me to preach..."

 

Not really that you took my post to preach is only because you like to show you about. Fine with me and if you read in reality you only repeat what other posts already touch it  ! ! 

My post was to say that you are not the only audiophile with good knowledge and experiences on sub’s/ESL. That’s it.

 

R.

Dear @drbond : Your amps is a design with tubes at the input well it’s down there ( a good technician that knows where in that stage and calculation for the cap is need it. ) where the high-pass could goes. No you don’t need digital .

If after your tests you do not like it you always can return as the begin.

 

"" this subwoofer project is looking complicated.. ""

No, maybe some of our posts made that " looks " complicated but it’s not at the level you are thinking and at the end is a room/system tests .

After those tests you will know where to go. Btw, for your subs test it’s not need it that you go with the 18" Velodyne model, you can make that job with the 15" woofer model.

R.