@kota1 for reasons only known to you you have issues with me. Feel free to direct message me and rant all you want. Be respectful and don’t make your issue everyone else’s issue as you are doing. It is disrespectful to everyone else here. Only you can make the actions of not making your beef everyone else's problem.
Is Imaging Worth Chasing?
Man, am I going to be torn apart for this. But I says what I says and I mean what I says.
Here’s a long term trend I’ve noticed in the audio press. Specs that used to be front and center in equipment reviews have essentially disappeared. Total harmonic distortion, for instance. Twenty years ago, THD was the start and end of the evaluation of any amplifier. Well, maybe power, first. Then THD. Armed with those two numbers, shopping was safe and easy.
The explanation for the disappearance is not hard to figure. Designers got so good in those categories that the numbers became meaningless. Today, most every amp on the shelf has disappearingly low distortion. Comparing .00001 to .000001 is a fool’s errand and both the writers and the readers know it. Power got cheap, even before Class D came along to make it even cheaper. Anyone who tries bragging about his 100 watts will be laughed out of the audio club.
Stereophile still needed to fill it’s pages and audiophiles still needed things to argue about so, into the void, stepped imaging. Reviewers go on and on about imaging. And within the umbrella of imaging, they write separately about the images height, width, and depth. “I closed my eyes and I could see a rock solid picture of the violas behind the violins.” “The soundstage extended far beyond the width of the speakers.” And on and on.
Now, most everyone who will read this knows more about audio equipment than me. But I know music. I know how to listen. And the number of times that I’ve seen imaging, that I’ve seen an imaginary soundstage before me, can be counted on my fingers. Maybe the fingers of one hand.
My speakers are 5-6 feet apart. I don’t have a listening chair qua listening chair but I’m usually 8-9 feet back. (This configuration is driven by many variables but sound quality is probably third on the list.) Not a terrible set-up, is my guess from reading lots of speaker placement articles. And God knows that, within the limited space available to me, I have spent enough time on getting those speakers just right. Plus, my LS50s are supposed to be imaging demons.
I’ve talked to people about this, including some people who work at high-end audio stores. Most of them commiserate. It’s a problem, they said. “It usually only happens with acoustic music,” most of them said. Strike one. My diet of indie rock and contemporary jazz doesn’t have much of that. “You’ve got to have your chair set up just right. And you’ve got to hold your head in just the right place.” Strike two. Who wants to do that?
(Most of the people reading this forum, probably. But I can’t think of any time or purpose for which I’ve held my head in a vise-like grip like that.)
It happens, every now and then. For some reason, I was once right up next to my speakers. Lots of direct sound, less reflections. “The Name Of This Band Is Talking Heads” was playing. And I literally gave a start because David Byrne was standing on the coffee table. Cool.
But, generally speaking, imaging is something I only read about. And if that little bit of imaging is the dividend of dropping more money into my system, I’m not sure that I want to deposit into that account.
I think that I still have a few steps to take that will pay benefits other than imaging. But maybe the high-end is not for me.
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- 102 posts total
@thespeakerdude , Granted the WAF factor is an issue with large ESL. When I first met my wife I had Tympany 3's, the biggest, ugliest speakers ever made. She views the ESLs as large improvement. Most people think they have something to do with the theater and are surprised to learn they are speakers. I am an old rocker. I dislike wimpy systems. If you know what you are doing and can afford very large Class A amps ESLs will go beyond the pain threshold. The secret is to cross them over to a subwoofer array around 100 Hz. Below 100 Hz the diaphragm has to take large excursions increasing distortion and sucking up headroom. ESLs will make bass but they hate it. ESLs have advantages dynamic speakers can't match. ESL distortion levels are a magnitude lower. They are way more dynamic. Things like snare drum snaps have as much punch as large horns. I am talking about full range line source ESLs (8 feet tall with 8 foot ceilings) not smaller ones. Some people prefer the miniature image they get with point source speakers. I have never had a point source system make me feel as if I am at a live performance and I use to be in the business. My system does it all the time usually when my wife is not home. The funny thing is if I play a Blue Ray video concert the volume does not bother her at all. Go figure. What all of us think is purely a matter of our individual experiences. Systems like mine are a rarity and few people have experienced them. When you say ESL people think of Quads, an extremely limited and fragile speaker. Speakers like the old Acoustats and Sound Labs are a totally different story. Roger West has installed large ESL PA systems in theaters. They are extremely hard to damage. You have to run them through with a spear, not kidding. You will fry everything else before you fry these speakers. I can push 400 watt amps into gross distortion and the speakers could care less. The people who have heard them usually come away with the thought that they are one of the best speakers they have ever heard. |
Magnepans and other planar speakers are well known for the imaging capabilities, so I would suggest giving them a try. But even with high end Magnepans, I can't always tell where the instruments were on the soundstage. Usually however, the singer is right in the middle, which is in my opinion is an enormous improvement from hearing two distinct boxes. Of course I have to sit right in the middle between them to hear it properly, but that is not a big deal for me. |
- 102 posts total