@mrmb , Well said.
objective vs. subjective rabbit hole
There are many on this site who advocate, reasonably enough, for pleasing one’s own taste, while there are others who emphasize various aspects of judgment that aspire to be "objective." This dialectic plays out in many ways, but perhaps the most obvious is the difference between appeals to subjective preference, which usually stress the importance of listening, vs. those who insist on measurements, by means of which a supposedly "objective" standard could, at least in principle, serve as arbiter between subjective opinions.
It seems to me, after several years of lurking on and contributing to this forum, that this is an essential crux. Do you fall on the side of the inviolability of subjective preference, or do you insist on objective facts in making your audio choices? Or is there some middle ground here that I’m failing to see?
Let me explain why this seems to me a crux here. Subjective preferences are, finally, incontestable. If I prefer blue, and you prefer green, no one can say either of us is "right." This attitude is generous, humane, democratic—and pointless in the context of the evaluation of purchase alternatives. I can’t have a pain in your tooth, and I can’t hear music the way you do (nor, probably, do I share your taste). Since this forum exists, I presume, as a source of advice from knowledgable and experienced "audiophiles" that less "sophisticated" participants can supposedly benefit from, there must be some kind of "objective" (or at least intersubjective) standard to which informed opinions aspire. But what could possibly serve better as such an "objective standard" than measurements—which, and for good reasons, are widely derided as beside the point by the majority of contributors to this forum?
To put the question succinctly: How can you hope to persuade me of any particular claim to audiophilic excellence without appealing to some "objective" criteria that, because they claim to be "objective," are more than just a subjective preference? What, in short, is the point of reading all these posts if not to come to some sort of conclusion about how to improve one’s system?
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@mrmb , Quite … Once upon a time most of these tweeks were reasonably inexpensive so where was the harm ? $3K fuse anyone |
"Reasonably inexpensive"? What's the heck does “reasonably inexpensive” mean? Reasonable cost wise, is only reasonable in the eye of the beholder and their bank account. When it comes to discretionary spending, why would I pass any reasonableness judgement on any seller or buyer? In fact, why would I pass judgement on anyone but myself and my wallet? Besides, if someone wants to spend their income on a $3,000 fuse, or $47,000 on a gold & diamond encrusted 1-meter IC and wear it around their neck as jewelry, why would I, or anyone care, or use the term "harm", when NO harm is always the answer? Frankly, I'm happy that there are people with disposable incomes to buy whatever fuses they choose and more! And if they don't have the disposable income, again why should I care; or consider posting or arguing the insanity (to me), of some of the questionable products (to me) pawned-off as being beneficial? I don't know about anyone else, but living within my means, began with my first job at 14. It is a lesson that must be learned long before buying non-essentials, let alone luxury items like 100% of the audio items discussed in this forum. If you have it, there is always someone who will want it and will do whatever it takes to get it. This includes every relationship you have and every possession you own, including your money. Does anyone with the ability to read and comprehend this forum and thread not understand this basic fact of human nature and life? So yeah, have fun, buy those $3,000 fuses that have no known electrical measurable advantages and enjoy! |
@celtic66 - You post entertained me. F1 engines are designed without limitations which is different than assembly line produced engines, but they are absolutely designed with extremely tight specification. I'd bet that 99% of what they do is designed with CAD prior to the first prototype with reliable results. This can only be done if they understand the science behind every aspect of the design and materials. They can reliably predict if the design will produce the power and torque that they want along with the associated power bands along with reliability. It's a fairly perfect example of the objective point of view though I don't see anything similar being possible with audio if for no other reason than there are so many external factors that the designers cannot control. |
Thanks to mrmb for directness: "I buy equipment based on my sonic preferences; more importantly however, I almost exclusively come here to read posts from others regarding their personal sonic preferences and experiences." And to mitch2 for calling out hyperbole: "how much reliance do you have in posters who report that the sound of their systems are 'totally transformed' just about every time they install a new cable, fuse, or other tweek? Is that even possible, or are they just prone to exaggeration?" But my original post really had a fairly simple point that these two extremes don't address. I come here for advice in solving audio problems (for which the dearly departed MC was more helpful than anyone, even when he was wrong—which was most of the time) and for input on purchasing decisions. Now, if the only relevant criterion in audio is how it sounds to you (or me), then it's a mistake to seek advice on purchasing options from anyone else. But I don't believe that's the case. I also make, and taste, a lot of wine. By the logic of most who have responded in this thread, it would be pointless to suppose that there are any objective criteria when it comes to something so obviously a matter of taste as wine. And yet, the differences in cost between bottles is enormous, as it is between audio components. One hopes that those differences are not just driven by the placebo effect, and that seeking advice from fellow enthusiasts who have lots of relevant experience would not be a complete waste of time. In fact, of course, there is "objectivity" in wine tasting: someone with experience and a refined palette can reliably identify the grape, the vintage, and the quality of what they're tasting. This is what I thought I was looking for in audio on this site. But if that's to be true, then there must be a way to mitigate "subjective taste" with some kind of appeal of objective facts. Bottom line: I guess I won't come here looking for informed advice anymore. I'll just enjoy my own ears, and my own system, and not pretend that anyone else can tell me anything that might educate my judgment on such subjective matters. |
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