Have you moved away from full range to standmount speakers + subs?


I want to know if you have been on a journey moving from a large full range speaker to a smaller one paired wit subs, maybe even four subs.


Maybe you moved away from the big speakers because you had too much bass or you got a better soundstage from the smaller speakers. Let me know what motivated you and if you think it’s better now.


My motivation for wanting to try smaller speakers.


I have the Tekton DI and until a month ago I was using a LM845P SET amp to drive them.

It only sounded good on simple jazz and vocals but on complex music everything was falling apart.

I am not playing loud but I think it was the low 2 ohm load in the midrange that made the LM break down.


I bought a used PS Audio BHK250 and pre and it was like getting new speakers. Never ever had it occurred to me that speaker and amp matching could have such a profound effect.


So I am enjoying my speakers now and listen to music I have avoided like the plague and enjoying it (:


But all of this got me thinking, what if I paired my LM845P with an easy to drive speaker and paired it with some subs?


Then the LM845 could do what it's best at, playing glorious midrange and the subs could play the bass.

So that's my motivation for trying smaller speakers.


I am also hoping that maybe I could get better and more even bass with 2 or 4 subs. Maybe a better soundstage because the small speakers have a very small baffle.

martin-andersen
@phusis

@jjss49 --

Good insights.

It seems to me though you’re leaving out one scenario, namely that pairing the larger full-range speaker (in your case the Spendor SP100 R2’s) with a pair of subs. Have you tried out that combination with the REL’s of yours?

i have indeed and of course that is often the best of all worlds

i only wrote my comments to address the op’s specific query of comparing sat+subs vs full range (w/o subs)...
there was a thread a few years ago about matching towers with subs, with great input from Duke and Ralph K...I ended up with that setup, and with gracious help from Duke setup was surprisingly easy and effective...
Over the past week I used three different speaker systems:
1. Wharfedale Opus 2-M2 with Legacy Audio XTREME XD Subs
2. King Sound King III electrostatic with same subs at same settings
3. Ohm Walsh Model F with same subs, same settings

All systems used same source, Small Green Computer sonicTransporter with SONORE Signature Rendu with systemOptique; same USB, Clarity Cable Supernatural 1m; same DAC, Exogal Comet with PLUS Power Supply, same amps, Legacy Audio i.V4 Ultra, and same cables, Iconoclast Cables and BAV Power Cords. 

Ideally the sub would be dialed in for each, obviously, but my latest interest is hearing each for the imaging and soundstage characteristics pursuant to this discussion. If you wish to argue with me about the method employed, I'm not interested. Build your own systems and do your own direct comparisons to derive your conclusions.   :) 

Wharfedale setup: Quite lovely with the expected density of center image due to dynamic and 3" mid. Even with a very generously appointed midrange and bass driver, it becomes evident that bookshelf speakers are limited by their small cabinets. The driver selection is constrained and the performance level dragged toward the perhaps upper middle of the performance spectrum of HiFi versus the practically limitless drivers and designs of larger towers. There are very good reasons why most manufacturers do not opt for bookshelf systems as their ultimate expression of speaker building. 

King III: Instantly obvious grandiose soundstage which makes the bookshelf's sound stage seem diminished, and with much superior spatial location of performers. The depth of soundstage, the vastness of venue, becomes quite evident. Center image is stretched, obviously, due to the driver type and configuration, however more finesse, fine detail is heard in the center image. Far more consistency across the acoustic plane from L/C/R, versus the hot spot of bookshelf imaging.

Ohm Walsh Model F: It can be surprising to hear how muddled this driver is in comparison to the others. The promotion of these older drivers as having exquisite resolution in comparison to newer technology is simply wrong. Quite a muted mid relative to the others. It becomes obvious that this older driver has serious constraints. The upper end is clean, light, but the midrange on down is hindered, even when carefully double wiring it, as with the others. Here is an interesting point; the vaunted omni sound stage with this speaker is not all that; the King III throws a significantly larger, more voluminous sound stage and with much better cleanness top to bottom. The ohm character is the antithesis of the Wharfedale's immediacy, and the King III masters them both. I would not choose the Model F as a reference speaker. It's just a fun play around speaker for me. The King Sound King Tower omni has superior openness and cleanness. 

One outcome such comparisons is that the audiophile should not think to recreate the performance of a tower by swapping in bookshelf and sub even with a larger bookshelf speaker. Not going to happen unless the largely unproductive goal of recreating the precise set of drivers and crossovers of a tower speaker in two cabinets is pursued. At that point you have largely failed at advancing the system by splintering it. Genre of speaker is crucial to outcome and imo should color the discussion of tower vs. bookhself/sub as much as anything.   

There has been a fair bit of conversation about subs with tower speakers. Big towers do not necessarily need subs, but in terms of macrodynamics they almost always are a boon. However, you will pay a price for slapping additional big drivers into the rig. Coherence will suffer with subs added (No, I do not care about the opinion of those who flog the topic of distributed arrays; they have their own idiosyncrasies, and I am not interested in debating my discussion. BTW, I like Duke Lejune and his idea, and have heard the DBA prior, but see pro/con in all sub setups), so it's a trade off between presence and precision. Imo, not possible to get perfection on both spectrums simultaneously, and trust me, I've tried dozens of times with systems. 

I offer this as an example of what might be expected in direct comparisons between different genres of speaker systems, especially in terms of center image and sound stage. Obviously, particular characteristics will change based on selection of genres of speakers, but I would not expect the framework of the outcome to change. 

Speakers are not limited by cabinet size! If you give the proper amount of enclosure for a driver, an increase in cabinet size is always a negative. Unless of course you want to listen to the baffle and cabinet specific distortions. Some of the nonsense written on this site from so called experts is astonishing. In a perfect world all you want to hear is the driver itself and I would like for someone to explain to me how it could be any other way.