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eBay / PayPal: Beware - enough is never enough.

OK, I'm just venting here, but maybe some folks will find some useful information in this...


  • eBay's New 'system' for screwing you, uhh, I meant 'paying you'.
You've all had the emails and gone into your eBay account to accept the new system for getting paid, right?

In the old days, we could sell a pair of $4,000 speakers on eBay and the buyer could pay you and the money would be transferred to your PayPal account instantly. PayPal would dock their fees and eBay would reconcile your monthly sales and charge you fees at the end of the month based on what you sold. Not so anymore.

You sell your $4000 speakers, for which the buyer has paid, let's say $350 for shipping. Now, eBay holds on to ALL the funds, including the shipping payment, until the item is delivered!

So, you have to fund the shipping fees from your own pocket while eBay sits on YOUR money. What if you don't have the $350 and need the money the seller has paid you to fund buying the shipping labels?? Tough Luck. (how can this even be legal, never mind ethical?)
Then, what happens when UPS loses the package?? Some 'robot' at eBay arbitrarily decides that you don't get your money because their automated system indicates the item wasn't delivered. Now you have to wrangle with UPS, meanwhile, your money is sitting in eBays vaults earning them interest.

What a joke.


  • eBay screws you for NON-SHIPMENT
Here's another example of eBay screwing you - this happened to me in January.

I listed a big/heavy item, $3000 + $160 fixed rate UPS shipping

A prospective buyer contacts me to ask if he could pay for shipping through his business UPS account because he thinks he can get a better rate. Fine.

I agree, he hits 'Buy Now', and I send him an eBay invoice without shipping costs. (THIS IS BEFORE THE NEW EBAY SYSTEM WHERE THEY HOLD YOUR MONEY!)

I pack the item and contact the buyer showing photos of the packing process, supply the dimensions and weight, and request that he sends shipping labels and arranges for UPS to pick it up from my address, all as agreed prior to the sale.
A week goes by, nothing. I contact him and tell him I need to get this out of my space, can he send the labels.
After almost 3 weeks he emails me through eBay and just says 'I want a refund'. I message back and say no fric*en way. We go back and forth, he opens a dispute with eBay. I counter and also open a ticket with eBay and provide all of the correspondence and documentation, which is all sitting in my eBay messages account anyway.

A few days go by and eBay decides in his favor, removes the money from my PayPal account, and enters an invisible 'STRIKE' against my selling account for NON SHIPMENT!!! (I only found this out after speaking with an eBay customer service manager, don't even ask how long that took).

So basically I have to start over trying to sell the item as this loser couldn't get a decent shipping rate through his UPS account, and wouldn't pay the $160 that was listed with the ad. And eBay PUNISHES ME for non-shipment!
Word to the wise - Don't allow the buyer to organize shipping. Even 'local pickup' is fraught, should they just decide not to turn up.


  • PayPal Screws Sellers Under Their Seller Protection Program
Be super careful to read the small print when you sell and ship an item after being paid through PayPal, even when their system tells you that your transaction is covered by their Seller Protection Program. It isn't worth the paper it's written on.

Let me demonstrate by flipping this around and assuming the role of the BUYER to illustrate what a joke their Seller Protection Program is when you really need it the most - 

I'm a BUYER and I want to scam someone and get a nice $2000 CD Player for free. 
I pay using my PayPal account and the seller ships it to me, he thinks it's safe to ship 'cos he's qualified for PayPal's Seller Protection....ha ha.

The trick is, I need to use the credit card linked to my PayPal account to fund the transaction, using PayPal only to provide the gateway for the deception. 
The item arrives. I then file a dispute with my CC company (Not PayPal). I state on the dispute that the item received was 'NOT AS DESCRIBED' (no other wording or explanation needed). Bingo. My CC company instigates a charge-back and I've got myself a free CD Player.

Switching back to the seller's angle - 
I wake up to see that $2000 has been removed from my PayPal account pending a review. After X days, and after my complying with all documentation requests, PayPal informs me that the item I shipped was 'not as described' and that I'm NOT entitled to Seller Protection because their system excludes instances where a third-party credit card was used to fund the transaction, and where the Credit Card company authorized the charge-back!!

What, you're kidding me, right? NO. Read the terms of the seller protection program and it's clearly stated.

Also, even if the buyer uses PayPal funds from their account, you can still end up getting screwed. You MUST always enter the shipping information inside of PayPal -  a full tracking number. Always use 'adult signature' and always ship to the verified address on PayPal. If the buyer emails you after sending payment and gives you a different shipping address, send a refund and walk away. Trying to enter tracking numbers for proof of delivery retroactively after a dispute has been started, may land you in a situation where PayPal find in favor of the buyer, refund them the money from the transaction, AND, decline to reimburse you under the Seller Protection program because you didn't follow the requirements of the program post-sale. This isn't speculation. I've read many forum posts where people have shipped an item believing it safe to do so, then had the money removed from their account by PayPal following a dispute, even though the initial transaction was shown to qualify for Seller Protection at the time of sale.


  • PayPal hangs on to your refunded money for as long as they care to.
Even when a transaction between buyer and seller is harmonious, PayPal can still find a way to screw with you.

Perhaps this is a less egregious example of PayPal's utter disregard for their customers, but valid nevertheless. And a warning to those of you using a linked credit card to fund a PayPal purchase - 

(I'm in the midst of dealing with this now, outcome unknown).

I buy an item for $2000 using PayPal, funded from a linked Credit Card.
After a few weeks, the item hasn't shipped and I ask the supplier that the order be canceled and the money refunded (to PayPal). 
The seller complies with my request and I see the refund issued inside my PayPal account. 
After a few days, I log in to my Credit Card account but the refund hasn't been credited through from PayPal, so there's a $2000 charge on my account, and payment due pretty soon.

I wait a week and still nothing. I look closely at the transaction inside my PayPal account and see this -

"Refunded. Pending Until" Pending until when? It doesn't say. I open a ticket inside my PayPal account to ask how long I'm supposed to wait to get MY MONEY back. After 24 hours the ticket is responded to. The PayPal operator responds with "Please let us know your first and last name and we'll be happy to help". Remember, this is a ticket opened inside my PayPal account and after I've logged in!! They know who I am, FFS!

After 9 days of PP holding on to my refunded money, just arbitrarily and without any explanation or forecast as to when I'll receive it, my credit card payment is due. The only balance on my card is the $2000 transaction and I need to pay it to avoid interest since it's been a month since the original transaction. However - CREDIT CARD COMPANIES MAY SUSPEND YOUR ACCOUNT SHOULD A REFUNDED PAYMENT RESULT IN A POSITIVE ACCOUNT BALANCE, OR REJECT AN INCOMING TRANSACTION THAT WOULD APPLY A POSITIVE BALANCE TO YOUR ACCOUNT.

Yes, I was given this information from the CC company. It's something to do with the Patriot Act and preventing Credit Card accounts from being used erroneously to send money illegally from overseas. So, if I pay off the $2000 statement balance, then a few days later, the refund is miraculously posted from PayPal, the incoming credit MAY be rejected by my CC company. So where does it go? IN LIMBO? (Note to Catholics, you thought limbo was removed from the Catholic Catechism, but they were just messing with you, sorry). 

Remember, this is my money - the supplier refunded it. Now I'm at risk of it disappearing into some finance system's black hole because PayPal won't just refund it promptly.

Rant Over.

There are many documented examples of what little regard these companies have for the rights of the consumer (YOU HAVE FEW RIGHTS), and how little they care about anything other than growing their bottom line.

I can't believe there isn't a class-action lawsuit (multiple) against these companies. Oh, yeah, PayPal is owned by eBay, but....legally, they're two separate corporate entities. I wonder why that is, exactly.

Have a nice day!

Rooze


128x128rooze
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
577 posts
 
Here’s the email announcing the new system, there’s nothing about having funds held pending delivery. Again, the lack of transparency.

eBay is now managing payments for your account

As a reminder, eBay is now managing payments for your account, which means:

  • •

    You get paid directly to your bank account, not your PayPal account. IMPORTANT: If you haven’t already done so, please add a bank account so you can get paid. You can add your bank account from the new Selling Overview page on My eBay. 

  • ◦

    Note: You may receive a separate message to add or verify your information.

  • •

    No more PayPal payment processing fees. No more separate monthly fee payments. You will pay an updated final value fee, consisting of a variable category-based percentage of the total amount of the sale, plus a fixed fee per order. Most sellers will pay the same or less than before.* See fee details

  • •

    Your buyers can now pay for items they purchase from you with credit, debit, and gift cards, Apple Pay, Google Pay, PayPal, and PayPal Credit.

What’s more

  • •

    You can access everything you need on eBay: consolidated fees, refunds, returns, and more.

  • •

    We will automatically deduct your eBay selling fees, expenses, and costs from your earnings before you get paid. The remainder of your earnings will go directly to your bank account.

  • •

    You can cover the costs of refunds and other charges from your bank account or credit card when your earnings are not sufficient to cover the refund amount.

  • •

    We will initiate payouts within two business days from when the buyer pays. You may choose to receive available funds to your bank account weekly or daily, as funds are available. Learn more about payouts.


dill
2,451 posts
 
Evidently, they determined, maybe because of the amount, the transaction to be a risk.

https://www.ebay.com/help/selling/getting-paid/getting-paid-items-youve-sold/pending-payments?id=415...

  When funds become available

Here are the time frames when your payment will become available:

  • Within 24 hours after we confirm the order was delivered if you pay for shipping and print labels on eBay.
  • Within 24 hours after we confirm the order was delivered if you ship directly using USPS, UPS or FedEx and manually enter your tracking information to My eBay.
  • 6 days after the latest estimated delivery date if you don’t upload tracking information, but you mark the item as shipped in My eBay.
  • 21 days after the buyer pays if you don't provide tracking information, mark the item as shipped, or the estimated delivery date can't be calculated. In such cases, we may use buyer feedback as a delivery confirmation along with other factors.

We may also hold funds for 21 days if we determine the transaction to be a risk. Category, price, and seller standing can all contribute to this decision. You can identify this by the estimated release date in the sold section of My eBay.


thefile's avatar
thefile
40 posts
 
Now Ebay wants access to our bank account. NO WAY. I am quitting eBay
rooze's avatar
rooze OP
577 posts
 
@dill 
Yes, evidently my transaction was flagged in some way, but how, exactly, and why not flag it and notify me at the time of listing, and not after a sale is made? Wouldn’t that make sense? 
It seems by doing it after a sale, they’re trying to manipulate a choice you should be entitled to make at the start of the selling process, and doing so in an entirely underhanded way. Post sale, you now have the choice of waiting for a month to get paid, having just forked over the shipping cost out of your own pocket, even though money expressly committed for shipping costs has been furnished by the buyer, or... canceling the sale. If you cancel the transaction you’re inconveniencing the buyer, I’m certain their money will float around the system for a few days before it hits their account. Also, you’re back to square one sitting on an unsold item and now looking for a new selling platform. They’re trying to give you a Hobson’s Choice and I’m basically saying “stick it”.

(for those who haven’t followed my previous comments, my eBay account was opened in 2015, I’ve a 100% feedback and have bought and sold items of a similar value to the item in question)

audiofoolz
6 posts
 
A good thread, worthwhile reading through it.

I do not sell my no longer needed gear anymore, rather give it away to someone who is a budding audiophile. Granted, the avg used price of what I am giving away is $300 or less.
My take on this: not worth the hassle of selling my used gear, life is too short. Plus, getting new audiophiles in the loop is good for everyone.  And building up my 'karmic points' an added bonus.


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