What is Floyd Toole saying about extra amplifier power and headroom?

Hey Diamond,

Here is a link to a DBX analog crossover. https://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/223xs

The biggest difference between this and the MiniDSP and the PA2 other than the one being analog and the others digital is that the MiniDSP and the PA2 can do everything the 223xs can plus much more, such as time alignment between your sub and mains, equalization, different style crossover slopes, driver protection and I believe user created preset memories so you can tune your system for different genres if you so desired. The 223xs can only perform crossover functions and its slope is predetermined and not changeable. Though that slope is the most widely used slope, at least amongst active crossovers.

In full disclosure I have not actually used a MiniDSP and I am assuming it's capabilities are similar to the DBX. 

I have reservations about the conversion going on inside the MiniDSP, which seems to make my DAC an afterthought.

I think I understand what you are saying here, but the MiniDSP or any type of crossover cannot replace your DAC. They have completely different jobs.

Hello diamonddupree and all,

     I was searching for more info on anything Toole has stated about amp headroom but couldn't find much. But I came across an older AVS Forum post along the way that I thought you and others on this thread may get a kick out of reading,
      It's from about 2003 and it describes his own home system at that time which is interesting.  And he even talks about a type of loudness wars in movie soundtrack mixing he noticed back then, in which the soundtracks were mixed for everything to be loud, the cinema operators would turn down the master volume in the theaters and, as a result, some of the dialogue on scenes was not loud enough.  It reminded me of engineers raising the overall loudness of cds and crushing the dynamics in the process.
     He used Revel Salon 2 mains positioned upside down, other Revel surround speakers and 4 subs in his system at that time.  Here's the link:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/revel-owners-thread.710918/page-482#post-52485977

Tim

If you "like", the sound of the Mini-DSP? You will love this.
The K-231.
And, I have no affiliation with these guys other than using this crossover and being extremely happy with it 

https://sublimeacoustic.com/products/k231-stereo-3-way-active-crossover

Because "I" could not bear the mini's change in the soundstage in any rig I tried it in, "3". Plus a few other issue's.....
I found this little company three years ago and keep a couple of the "K-231's," around. "I have needed to cascade two of them a couple of times for a 5-way". VERY, "Well designed and with a clean, high quality build
American made still too! You can still call these guy's and they "will", call you back.  But these seem to be catching on so they are busy.....
I have been bugging them for a unit with an ext. case that is at least a, "Half-rack" space. "Instead of the little box. So it will have the room for both, RCA and also XLR, In/Out And those are supposed to be coming. But haven't heard about that for a bit.
  The K-231 has had both balanced and unbalanced in/out but the balanced side utilizes (1/4 "-TRS ), currently. "Instead of the XLR.'s". 
 The last two they made for me have nice quality "IEC sockets" also. But that, "May" still be an optional, "Mod".. As Mine were. I thought at first the freq. "Modules" would be a pain but as it turned out, I really like them. They made me a bit more "serious", about where the x-over points on a few projects really, "needed" to be. But now I have a box full of them. Ha ha, Looking back? Collecting the frequency modules? It felt akin to collecting, "Baseball" cards.....!
 
  Wow, I sound like a sales rep. "Shudders".....
 So, 
And, I have no affiliation with these guys other than using this crossover and being extremely happy with it 
It is, "Nifty".

Hi OP,

Glad you are enjoying your new set up.

I still agree with Toole, in general, that excess amplifier headroom does not seem to have a big benefit, as opposed to having drivers with excess headroom, or reducing the demand on mid-woofers.

The best explanation I have of why subwoofers seem to help speakers perform better in so many ways is not headroom, but Doppler distortion.

It also seems to be why 3-way systems may have a lot more clarity than 2 way systems. 

By removing low frequency demand, you remove a great deal of Doppler distortion you'd have to deal with otherwise. The ability to EQ signals below the Shroeder frequency while you are at it is a big bonus.

Best,

Erik

Thanks for all the crossover recommendations. I've bookmarked all of them. And thanks @noble100 for the Toole link. One thing I've noticed in reading his book and even in his posts is that his observations are for multi-seat listening. In the book, almost everything he has to say about low frequencies and subwoofer placement has to do with optimizing for multiple seating positions. I think this explains a lot about his own choices in home audio. I'm mainly concerned with single-seat listening. My home theater system is good enough for my purposes. 

Next move for me is a mic to measure the response at my listening position. Then I can tinker with PEQ and see what that's all about before deciding if an analog crossover is worth a look. And then there's Butterworth vs. Bessel vs. Linkwitz-Riley filters. The force of the rabbit hole is strong.