Help with picking the right phono pre for the rest of my system please!


I'll try to make this short yet detailed enough for folks to weigh in properly.  This group is honestly the most knowledgeable and helpful I've found anywhere, so I really wanted to get this out there and see what people here recommend before I spend more cash!

I need advice on a phono pre, please!  The local shop (I bought local brick/mortar as I am trying to support that whenever I can) is super knowledgeable about analog so I trust their judgement, but my choices on phono pre's from them is quite limited, in particular with Audio Research in a model cross-over point with the PH6 and PH8 discontinued, which they no longer have in stock for me to demo.

Here's what I currently have in the rest of my system:

I just ordered a VPI Signature (Black Friday) deal which comes with the 3D printed tone arm and the SDS speed control module.  It's my very first turntable and foray into vinyl, and I didn't want to start small as I knew I would just want something better if I started with a $1000 table.  My research and a few buddies tell me this VPI is a very good start and could theoretically be my last turntable/tone arm. 

As a cart, the shop recommended and has on hand (important so I can listen to vinyl soon!) a Dynavector 20x2 MEDIUM, which I guess is not very common, and kind of sits in a weird spot given it's output.  But the recommendations of it being very musical seem to be a good place for me to start at $1k (and upgrade from later if desired).  I heard the combo at the shop and it sounded fantastic, albeit going through a higher-end Audio Research pre-/phono stage, and with my PrimaLuna HP amp driving top-end B&W 803 diamonds.

In my system I'm feeding a recently purchased (same) PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP integrated, which I've upgraded all tubes on to KT120s and upgraded 12AU7s.  It is absolutely stunning driving my Zu Soul Supremes.  I mean the best my system has ever sounded.  To add to my love of the amp, it has a built-in headphone amp running off the same tube stages that is driving my Audeze LCD-3s unbelievably well--so well that I'm going to sell my Auralic Taurus Mk II headphone amp.  Because I listen to headphones quite a bit, and I'm so happy with my speaker output to boot, I want to make sure I put the right investment into the vinyl side up front.

My digital front end is an Aurender N100 feeding a Schiit Yggy, which I can't recommend enough.  That combo smokes everything else I've had in my system, and there have been some decent to great DACs over the years.  The combination is causing me to spend more on my analog front end because I know if the vinyl doesn't beat it regularly, I will spin less vinyl in lieu of the more convenient and excellent sounding digital.

So, here's what I have as options for immediate demo and purchase from a phono pre perspective:
  • used Audio Research PH3SE for $1250, which has already been input matched (soldered!) to the cartridge I'm buying--I'm expecting to like it as I've heard it kind of gives a "vintage" sound which I think might sound great with my Zu's, but obviously worried it might not be enough performance in relative terms
  • SimAudio Moon 5.3 with external power supply (guessing around $2K)--I'm expecting it to be great given the reviews, but I have found SimAudio stuff a little dry and down-the-middle for my tastes in the past (I ran an I7 integrated for a couple of years and never totally fell in love with it in spite of it's tremendous performance)
  • crap, that's it!
I can get a Audio Research PH6 for about $2500 new, and a PH8 for about $4500, but I won't be able to demo them.  A PH7 can be had used for $3200.  Between those I feel like the PH7/PH8 would be a better step up from something like the PH3SE.  Don't know how those would do against the SimAudio 5.3.

As I think ahead to a lower output MC cartridge in the next couple of years, I'm nervous about getting too invested in a phono pre that doesn't have enough gain for the rest of my system and a low output MC cart.  As I understand it, the PH line may limit me there and require I get a really expensive preamp with more gain at that point?

So, what other phono pre's should I consider in the $2-5K range (preferably used prices for a better value) that won't be a gamble with my system synergy, and best case also help future proof me?

BTW, I love musical and big sound stage with tonal midrange bloom over detail and "hi-fi" sound and/or insane bass.  I would definitely say I'm a "tube guy" over SS in amps, but I've also read that maybe a solid state phono pre is better match with a tube amp to maximize the benefit of great vinyl.

Help please!

Thank you, Jay




128x128Ag insider logo xs@2xparsons
As you realize, the shop’s recommendation of the medium output (1 mv) version of the 20x2 will significantly constrain your choice of a phono stage. I would urge patience, to the extent of resisting the urge to go with what the dealer happens to have on hand, and perhaps letting them order the low output or high output version of that cartridge. (And between those two my instinct would be to go with the low output version).

Also, the fairly standard gain choices of 40 and 60 db provided by the SimAudio LP5.3 would, on at least some recordings, probably make it unsuitable for use with a 1 mv cartridge in conjunction with the 360 mv sensitivity of your amp. And I likewise suspect that the ~58 db gains of the ARC PH 6, 7, and 8 would be too high for use with that cartridge, again considering the sensitivity of your amp. Also, given your stated desire for future-proofing I would be hesitant to go with any of the ARC phono stages, due to the single fixed gain they provide.

So where does that leave you? As you apparently have already seen in researching past threads, if you want a phono stage providing the flexibility to support both low output and high output cartridges (but perhaps not a 1 mv cartridge), and you want sonics that are arguably unexcelled in its price class, and that would be a perfect match for your integrated amp in terms of impedance compatibility and with respect to being limited to single-ended interconnections, and you want to buy from a designer/manufacturer who is a treasure to deal with, and you are willing to wait perhaps 2 weeks for delivery, I would suggest that you consider the lower gain version of the Herron VTPH-2 ($3650). And for that matter it may be worthwhile giving Keith Herron a call and seeing what he has to say about the suitability of using that phono stage with a 1 mv cartridge. You can be assured of getting an unbiased and very knowledgeable answer.

Good luck. Regards,
-- Al

You could of course consider the Liberty B2B-1 - can be configured for any gain you'd like, standard is 45/MM and 65/MC. Easily switchable by a internal jumper accessible through a hatch cover on top.   Suggesting that maybe leave the MC setting stock then goose up the MM setting to 52 db or so.   Should you decide to try out MM later on its easily revertible to the stock 45dB by changing a pair of internal resistors.


Theres plenty of press on this little gem

http://www.stereophile.com/content/liberty-audio-b2b-1-phono-preamplifier#X5ylEHUHwZ5fmIxD.97

http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue52/liberty.htm


http://www.analogplanet.com/content/liberty-audio-b2b-1-phono-preamplifier-measurements#m2OZ0ExmHrCj...

http://www.libertyaudio.com/white-papers/b2b-1-phono-preamp


And yes I do make them

Good Listening

Peter
Even though not on your list, i would add the RCM sensor II to the list. Fully adjustable gain and load to fit a variety of cartridges. I had been using a zyx artisan and needed a little more gain. 
Based on head to head session:
Doshi Alaap>Manley Steelhead=ZYX Artisan>>Aesthetix Rhea. 
Not based on any electrical compatibility issues, but based on somewhat theoretical sound advantages, if you are going MC I would urge an LO MC.  All of the phono stages noted above can handle an LO MC w/o an outboard step-up.  Never heard the Herron but Al's suggestion is square to all I've read about that line.  I'd also suggest talking to Mehran at Sorasound regarding the right combo of cart and phono stage.  He's not a designer/builder but his customer service is outstanding and he has knowledge of a wide range of phono gear. 
All--hugely insightful and very helpful feedback--exactly what I was hoping to get from here...with the additional wrinkle of causing me to rethink the cartridge selection...and perhaps select a Low MC now since that's the path I'll probably head down eventually anyway.

I will give Keith Herron a call since that pre was on my short list already and get his thoughts.

I'll read up on the Liberty and RCMs a bit and call Mehran as well.

I'll report back with info I get.

Thanks a million folks...