What is vibration isolation for?

Audiofile9, you will have to speak louder my hearing aid batteries have died. I postulate that even if one admits for sake of argument that vibration can affect solid state circuitry by the mechanism you indicated in your post, you leap to the conclusion that it has an effect on the reproduced sound which you can perceive even if such effect is so small that it is below the threshold of human hearing. I ask a simple question: what is the magnitude of this effect? Where is the straw man? Your argument simply means, unless I am thick, that it is so obvious to the trained ear, that nothing else should be required in the way of evidence. Even assuming your observation is right, for sake of argument, a causal link between what you deem to be an incontrovertible observation and the mechanism you describe would be appropriate. Is it enough to say I put my XYZ amp on an ABC stand, it sounded way better to my superior trained ear, I have this nice explanation about vibration acting on solid state equipment, so that one is the cause of the other and obviously the reason why it sounds better?

I, somehow, prefer the honesty of posters who say who cares why, I hear it and that's enough for me, I don't need any explanation. PBB is a deaf jerk anyway and a know-nothing raining on our parade.

The "irony" statement is rather strange but no stranger than the "experiment" you suggest. I never said that vibration did not affect the chassis of a component. I merely stated that even if it did, the ill effects would not be audible in the normal reproduction of music in the home. Your pronouncement that the vibrations are such that they affect the electronic components inside the box and cause audible ill effects is supported only by your claim that you hear it and that this should be proof enough, sounds way more ironic than anything written by me. Is there anything outside the lunatic audio press, published by someone who knows what the hell he is talking about (which seems to exclude you and me both) supporting your, for want of a better word, theory?

The analogy I drew was simply to point out that because something exists which we associate with undesirable effects, we need not worry about it unless it is over a certain threshold. Did you know that there apparently are government regulations concerning the presence of insects in raspberry jam? That's what Kraft Foods told me years ago when I complained I found a bug in my new jam jar. Gives one pause no? Jam is still jam even if a jar in a million contains recognizable bug parts. I for one no longer eat Kraft jam. Too risky. I may not "anologize" to your liking, but I have difficulty following your writing. What you are saying is that in audio no matter how infinitesimal a physical phenomena is, good ears can always pick it up. I say how unfortunate. Don't eat that jam.

Insofar as knowledge of the industry is concerned, I know enough. The mere fact that one or a number of manufacturers of whatever stripe includes this or that in their equipment does not mean too much, since the inclusion could be for marketing purposes more than anything else. Think about it, they have to sell this stuff to people like you. So there is no hard data on this or that going into the product, just say it sounds better and chances are if the planets and stars align just right and your special good friend at high-end magazine such and such endorses it, it will become truth. Moreover, how do you know that any specific piece of gear produced by a manufacturer sounds better because of the vibration suppressing chassis. Would this not require auditioning two identical amps, save for the chassis? I will rephrase my question: why are only a handful of solid state amplifier manufacturers offering vibration reducing chassis? And tell me honestly, if you got yourself a Rowland amplifier with the tweaked out chassis would you not try it out on an expensive base and rave about how much better the whole thing is and what marvellous synergy you have just encountered. When is one done reducing vibration? Borrowing from the Stones: love is just a kiss away... Oh and by the way, I love the Frick and Frack rapport between you and Albertporter.

Pbb, your discussion in this thread can be summarized as follows:

"Tweaks can not possibly make a difference".
- well, yes, they can, and here's the physics.

"That's just techno-babble"
- no, it's pretty solid physics, with no contrary theories.

"OK, Tweaks can not make a measurable difference"
- well, here's how you could measure it and tell us what those numbers are.

"You can not possibly hear the difference they make".
- actually, we do. repeatedly, predictably, and 'blinded'.

"No way they make a HUGE difference"
- Pbb, YOU are the ONLY one to use that word in this thread.

"It's like saying every single bacterium diseases someone"
- no it's more like saying some bacteria eaters taste differences.

"Ok, wiseguy, then why don't manufacturers isolate?"
- well, they do, here's a few examples

"Why don't MORE manufacturers isolate?"
- well, here's some more that do.

"Why don't ALL manufacturers isolate?"
- not all products are designed to squeeze the last 5% at 50% more cost
- but for 1-5% of the cost of the product, tweaks can help.

"You haven't proven anything"
- no, because I don't have to. You need to prove the negatives you assert.

"HO HUM. I CAN'T HEAR YOU. LALALALALALALALA"

Please take your childish comments elsewhere, and leave this discussion to users who can a) READ before responding, b) respond to the POINTS raised, c) make claims based upon experience or research, and D) most importantly, actually partake in the hobby being discussed.

Pbb, still haven't noticed a list of what you have tried in your own system and what effect if any, you noticed. Listening to music is not about "hard data", it is about engaging your spirit. Maybe the manufacturers must be as scientific as they can be, but the result is what is important, and it is your ears that cast the final vote. Can't you get off the show me the numbers dogma? I said earlier "try it, you'll like it". What have you tried, and what were your experiences?

This continuing discussion reminds me of the story of the big game hunter stalking the grizzly bear.

The hunter drawing near the beast, levels his weapon to fire but is suddenly overpowered and sexually abused.

Returning to the same spot the next day, the bear again gets the jump on the hunter and is sexually abused again.

The third time the hunter returns he is startled when the grizzly suddenly rises up from the bushes, getting the jump on him once more.

Just before the bear begins to take advantage again he asks, "You don't really come here to hunt do you?"

Bmpncyc, the only store bought isolation device I have are four rather ancient Audio-Technica feet under my Arcam FMJ CD 23. The speakers are spiked to the concrete floor of my listening room. In all honesty I can tell you that whether the AT feet are under the cd player or not, it sounds the same to my ears. The same goes for the spikes. Whether they are there or not, the speakers sound the same to my ears. No great and sudden revelation image-wise, up, down, depth, height no change in bloom, tunefulness, and all the other expressions I could use to describe the quality of the reproduced sound.

The preamp is on a makeshift stand, metal tubing on casters. The power amps are on ancient Radio Shack speaker stands, with crappy casters, the stands are not even welded but put together with carriage bolts. I have vinyl bumpers from Home Depot on the upper portion of the metal plate on which rests the preamp and on the upper portion of the square tubing where the power amps rest. That's it, that's all. I have never heard in normal listening of music any effect of having any or all of these things there or not.

Curiously enough, one of the improvements of the Arcam cd player over its predecessor is the use of isolating materials. Since I have never heard the former and since other changes have been made between the two models, I can't tell you if this better isolation has brought about better sound. One sure thing, I am not going out to borrow one in order to compare it to the CD23. If something is cheap and will provide me with an extra measure of peace of mind, I will try it. Like I said if it can't hoit. But, at the risk of repeating myself, I have not heard any significant (or insignificant for that matter) improvement with any of these devices. Again, if vibration was the cause of such problems on ss amps and preamps as believed by many here, the mere fact of displacing the equipment in the room would affect the sound. Again, whether the amps are in front of the room, to the side, to the back, I have never heard any change in the sound they produce. I have excluded turntables from any statement I made on the audible effects of vibration. I have done likewise for cd players, although it would be impossible to argue that they are anywhere near as prone to the ill effects from airborne or structure borne vibrations as the analogue tt. I have even excluded valve equipment, which has a reputation of being somewhat microphonic, although I did not notice this when I bought my AR preamp.

It is strange to realise time after time that hidebound people think that the hobby has got to match their conception. As far as I can tell the person making claims of the existence of a phenomena should have the burden of proving it in some fashion. Repeating that it is so because it is so or that any half-wit can hear, see, feel, taste or smell something is not proof, but merely arrogance. Assuming on the flimsiest of observation that something exists and then saying that it is up to the opposing side to prove it does not does not advance one's case very much.

In closing I have a sub-question to those familiar with the "industry": are powered or active speakers the antithesis of high-fidelity since the amps have no place to hide from the dreaded vibrations or are the amps used therein specially protected from vibration by esoteric and heroic means such as braced capacitors. Maybe someone with such speakers could share his/her concerns over living with such calamitous devices.