Your opinion on the evolution of amps since 70s?

I believe there is some evolution from early amps to the current models today but not nearly as much as with early digital source components. I own an older Threshold Se series amp and had an interesting conversation with an well known amp designer once. I mentioned that I had thoughts of upgrading to a new amp and he suggested that I not be in too much of a hurry to upgrade yet as my older Threshold could still hold it's own against many of the current designs today.

Thanks Atmasphere for a most lucid and informative discussion. That's the kind of response I was hoping for when I started this thread. I've always known that ss amps are better today than they have ever been but now I learn a great deal about tube amp's evolution as well. I agree with you that they are among the better values out there in spite of their relatively high cost.

I fully understand and agree with you that an amp that is properly designed and built with high-quality parts costs a great deal of money, especially for a small run. I still find that too many high-end amplifiers out there spend (waste?) an inordinate amount of money on cosmetics and testosterone effects. Sure, a fancy box helps sell the amp but I for one prefer the money optimally spent on the sound. I always open an amp and do the part counts whenever I can: many high-end amps are just overpriced, period.

To be fair, I think high-end amplifiers are distant second or even third when it comes to poor values—that’s really what we are talking about. Cables and cartridges are way up there on top of the overprice/poor value list with many speakers not far behind. And I won’t even mention the ridiculously priced accessories with dubious functions out there. When you see that companies like Magnapan, Martin-Logan, Vandersteen, and Thiel just to name a few—I apologize for not recalling all the worthy ones—have been able to make great sounding products at about the same price or less in constant dollars as they did 20 years ago, you begin to wonder about the prices of other speakers.

I am way off the main thrust of this thread: amplifier evolution since the 70s. But I feel that it is important to stress an important point: the larger the gap between the cost of high-end audio and mass-market audio—or should I say video?—the further the high-end market will shrink, and the higher the unit cost of high-end gears will rise. It’s a vicious circle. Let us make great products but let us not forget about values.

Better components, not better design. But what a difference.
In '71, I bought a pioneer 626, electrovoice speakers and dual turntable for $450. With inflation, that price would be around $1,800 today. For $1,800, you can put together a system today that will sound better than the original. There is (and has been) high end equipment sold, not for the enjoyment of music; but for establishment of "superiority". Audio is not immune to status seeking.

the cost of manufacturing consumer electronics as a percentage of wholesale(this includes hi end audio)has dropped from about 35% to less than 10% in the last 35 years. the only two places to see increases have been cardboard and transportation. that $20,000 system has a hard cost of around $2000 today. this obviously does not apply to the diy'ers who took out a second mortgage to fund a company commited to building an s.e.t. capable of....well...not much. i love music, but this industry has got to be based on value for the dollar like any other.

Hi jay_douglas_287@msn.com to some degree you are correct but only for certain parts and materials. In 1970, Teflon parts were astronomical in price- about $1,000 apiece in round numbers, today a Teflon part is a fraction of that. But Caddock resistors and other similar parts did not even exist back then and are quite pricy today. Some Caddock resistors retail for well over $25.00 each. We could use 3 cent resistors and 35 cent coupling caps but the gear would sound bad!

One must also figure the cost of labor and the cost of small manufacturing. If you want something that is stamped out by the 10,000s of units in China, it might be cheap. But if a product is made by hand with proper materials in the US, and only ten of them are made at a time you are simply going to have to pay for it. Its a good bet that the stamped out unit is not going to sound as good too, because by definition less care goes into its existance. You do get what you pay for (although there are shills in any industry).

When I designed our product line I started with the idea of putting the dollars into the performance rather then the cosmetics and that is our ideal today. But we pay the price- often our products are not taken seriously because it *is* less expensive then the competition that it beats! and because we don't have a 1" thick gold panel on the equipment. At the same time though, our stuff is not cheap, because we are only interested in an assult on state of the art, so we have custom built switches, filter caps, resistors and capacitors- this stuff costs very dear even in large quantities. Yes, we could build with lesser materials and parts but now we are not being the best that we can be- which is not what high end audio is all about (hopefully each of us in the industry believes in what we are doing and are building the best stuff that we know how).

If high end audio is shrinking, it is not due to prices, so much as it has to do with public awarness, which is a subject of a different thread.