Your opinion on the evolution of amps since 70s?

Hpims, I am also a tube lover, but I have not listened to a McIntosh in a long time so perhaps we can pool our experience.

I am very much impressed by the bass of NEW tube amps like the BAT or Atmosphere: dynamic, of course, and surprisingly deep and tight though still not quite the equal of the bass on solid-state amps.

My impression about tube amp frequency extension is somewhat different from yours. With all due respect to the venerable MC275, I think new tube amps go a little lower and higher than old tube amps, but ALL of them are STILL truncated at both ends. Mind you, I don't miss anything when I listen to my BATs, but when I switched to my solid-state amps, then I KNOW that I missed a lot of information, especially in the top end.

About the noise. I am impressed by how quiet my BATs are but I can still hear some rushing noise from them even in balanced mode; my solid-state amps are considerably quieter. As much as I love my tube amps, I don't think they will ever be as quiet as solid-state amps.

To get back to the point of my original thread--amp evolution--I feel that tube amps have improved: quieter and better extension in the bass and treble. But since I do not have an old MC275 to compare, I can't be absolutely sure. As to the price increase, I think we are of the same mind there.

S23Chang, I guess we disagree on tubes but are in agreement with ss-amp improvement.

I get outstanding sound out of the BATs with Watts'puppies, Celestion, and Avalon Ascent.

On ss amps, I would add that even later products (up to mid-90s) could be excellent bargains. You can get very sophisticated ss amps by Counterpoint, Krell, Pass Lab, etc., even class-A amps, for $1000-$1500 or less (e.g. Threshold). Furthemore, slight modifications to some of these amps can make a significant improvement to the sound, but that's another story altogether.

Jay, your assessment is opposite of mine but I respect it, especially since my own opinion of ss-amp improvement was not based on direct comparison but only on my recollection and experience. It seems to me, however, that for about 20 years (late 70s to mid-90s), each time I replaced a ss amp in my system (Dynaco, Yamaha, Hafler, Adcom, GAS, PS audio, B & K, Threshold, Krell, Rowland Research), the new one was always a little better than its predecessor. After all, they incorporated new designs, such as zero feedback, class A, high current, extended bandwidth, MOSFET, JFET, stiff power supply, dual mono construction, balanced inputs, high-quality parts capacitors & resistors in critical areas, etc. So, I logically concluded that my current ss amps must be much better than the one I owned in the late 70s. I still believe that.

Out of curiosity, I dusted off my old Hafler (early 80s vintage) from my storage room and hooked it up to my current system. And the sound was…far worse than I remembered: grainy, dry, very Hi-fi and not musical at all. The focus and soundstage were particularly disappointing. Even my low-cost B & K ST120 (late 80s/early 90s) sounded significantly better in every respect except perhaps punch. I would not overstretch my recollection to say that any of the ss amps from the mid-80s to the mid-90s by Audio Research, Counterpoint, Krell, Mark Levinson, Rowland Research, Threshold, etc. would sound better than vintage ss amps from the late 70s to early 80s.

You mentioned Mr. Kloss, a man I greatly respect and admire, and his famous Advent speakers. What a coincidence. I dusted off m y AR 3a and Large Advent speakers—you guessed it! I never throw anything away—which were considered some of the best speakers in the late 70s and early 80s. I hooked them up to my current electronics. Their sound was…disappointing! The bass was deep but ponderous and muddy; the midrange was OK but not terribly dynamic; the top end was muffled, lacking in sparkles. As in the Hafler’s case, the overall sound of these speakers was Hi-fi rather than musical. I grant you that comparing these speakers to today’s better speakers was probably unfair. But even compared to my Celestion video speakers, the venerable AR and Advent sounded hopelessly outdated and outclassed. I would venture to say that many speakers from the 80s to mid-90s like the Magnapan II or III, Marti-Logan CLS, Vandersteen, Thiel, KEF, just to name those I am very familiar with, would easily outperform the vintage AR 3a and Large Advent. The parallel may be instructive though I am getting way off the topic of amplifier evolution. Sorry.

Jay, I wished I had the chance to hear real vintage tube amps. My experience started with Conrad-Johnson, passing through Audio Reaserch and ending with BAT today. I alternately use a solid-state amp in my system as well.

I think the obscene price increase in audio started tentatively in the mid-80s with cartridges prices that jumped from around $100-$200 to $500 and more. This price surge really took off in the mid-90s with cables (from $50-100 to $500-1,000 per pair). After that, $10,000 amps and $20,000 speakers became the norm rather than the exception. Most audio hobbyists and enthusiasts cannot afford today's prices of high-end audio.

I think the demise of the music business as we knew it started when they proclaimed at the birth of CD that its digital sound was "perfect." It's been downhill ever since. The Internet is just the straw that broke the camel's back. It's depressing to go to any music section of Border's, or worse, Barnes & Noble: it's deserted most of the time. Being an engineer, I like the convenience of the Internet and MP3; the heavily compressed sound is OK on my iPod and in my car, but it is unacceptable in my home system.

The music scene is on the verge of a dramatic change. I hope there is a place for lovers of both great music and great sound like us in the new scene but I am not holding my breath.

I think I'm going to play my Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon LP to cheer me up!

Thanks Atmasphere for a most lucid and informative discussion. That's the kind of response I was hoping for when I started this thread. I've always known that ss amps are better today than they have ever been but now I learn a great deal about tube amp's evolution as well. I agree with you that they are among the better values out there in spite of their relatively high cost.

I fully understand and agree with you that an amp that is properly designed and built with high-quality parts costs a great deal of money, especially for a small run. I still find that too many high-end amplifiers out there spend (waste?) an inordinate amount of money on cosmetics and testosterone effects. Sure, a fancy box helps sell the amp but I for one prefer the money optimally spent on the sound. I always open an amp and do the part counts whenever I can: many high-end amps are just overpriced, period.

To be fair, I think high-end amplifiers are distant second or even third when it comes to poor values—that’s really what we are talking about. Cables and cartridges are way up there on top of the overprice/poor value list with many speakers not far behind. And I won’t even mention the ridiculously priced accessories with dubious functions out there. When you see that companies like Magnapan, Martin-Logan, Vandersteen, and Thiel just to name a few—I apologize for not recalling all the worthy ones—have been able to make great sounding products at about the same price or less in constant dollars as they did 20 years ago, you begin to wonder about the prices of other speakers.

I am way off the main thrust of this thread: amplifier evolution since the 70s. But I feel that it is important to stress an important point: the larger the gap between the cost of high-end audio and mass-market audio—or should I say video?—the further the high-end market will shrink, and the higher the unit cost of high-end gears will rise. It’s a vicious circle. Let us make great products but let us not forget about values.